Eszter Zavaros: Thank you for this opportunity to talk. I have two questions. Firstly, this isn’t the first time that you’ve visited the White House, in fact this is one of many visits, and once again you’ll be there to discuss a very important issue – unlike many European Union leaders, who won’t meet with Donald Trump. What do they think about the fact that you’re going there again, negotiating again, on a very important issue again, and that Hungary is practically always the centre of attention?
Donald Trump is the latest of many presidents I’ve had talks with. I’ve seen all kinds of presidents: I started with Bill Clinton, then continued with the younger Bush, then came President Obama, then President Trump, then Biden, and now President Trump again. And even during my late lamented time in opposition I negotiated with President Bush Sr. – but with him in Budapest, before the collapse of communism. I don’t think viewers will remember this, but the American president played a key role in 1989, because the elder Bush was only willing to come to Hungary on the condition that the communists first settle the issue of the victims of the 1956 Revolution. So the reburial of Imre Nagy and his associates had to be announced in order for President Bush to come. I can say that even the Americans may not realise what an important role they played in Hungary’s democratic transition when they came. That’s when I met him. So that’s my background. Well, everyone is the architect of their own fortune. So as European leaders – almost without exception – took pleasure in reviling, criticising and mocking President Trump and treating him with contempt for four years after he lost the American election, then there would be consequences for that after the President returned. We never did that – for several reasons. First of all, because the American president is the American president. President Biden did us a lot of harm, but even then we tried to speak with the respect that the American people deserve. Secondly, in politics you never know what tomorrow will bring, so it’s better not to ruin your position. Thirdly, President Donald Trump was a breath of fresh air for us, after the difficult relationship between Obama and Hungary, and he helped Hungary a lot during his first term in office. And European leaders ruined that. It’s that simple. We in politics are human beings too, we remember things, and I don’t like to be friends with people who in the past spouted all kinds of things about me and wanted to see me go to hell. We Hungarians are fortunate. In my opinion Hungarians are fundamentally a loyal people: once a friend, always a friend. We established good cooperation with Donald Trump during his first term. We had no reason to join in Europe’s chorus of disapproval, we stayed out of it, and we even showed respect to the President. Now this has brought us advantages, there’s no doubt about that. That’s the personal side of things. This is perhaps less important – but, as I’ve said, politics is also about people. What’s perhaps more important is that what we’ve been doing since 2010 – which I’d describe as the development of a modern Christian system of government – is exactly what the American president has been doing since 2016. Hungary is not very significant in terms of size, but, being surrounded by a left-liberal, left-wing political environment, the experiment we embarked on in 2010 was a special one which aroused interest in many parts of the world – including in America. Because in America, just as in Europe, there’s a struggle, a civilisational struggle, over whether there will be modern Christian governance based on traditional values, or whether there will be this left-liberal conception of the future of the Western world, with governance that upends, rethinks and redefines everything. This battle is raging, and we’re on the same side as the current American president.
Prime Minister, I have one more question. Having read Donald Trump’s biography, I must say that he’s a very, very smart, very thoughtful businessman who knows exactly what he’s doing and why; and it’s clear that he communicates and acts very thoughtfully in politics too. But surely you, Prime Minister, have a routine for how to negotiate with this type of leader. What’s the secret, or what’s the key to Donald Trump, so that, say, in a negotiation, you can reach an agreement or compromise with him?
Be straightforward in negotiations. So don’t try to trick anyone – that’s the key. If you try to be cunning, beat around the bush, play games, and think that you’re smart and able to skilfully manipulate the situation, then you’re mistaken. So the simplest thing to say is this: “We’ve come because we want three things. Is there a way to achieve them – and if so, under what conditions?” And then a normal negotiation will begin. This is extremely unusual in Western diplomacy, by the way. This is why I supported him even before 2016, in the 2015 campaign – not that it mattered much. But Hungary stood by him. This was because I was sure that if there wasn’t a new leadership approach, a new style of government, a new way of thinking, but instead we remained stuck in this Western European, overly intellectual, pedantic and bureaucratic approach to communication and governance, then the Western world would collapse. Europe remained in that mode, and it has plenty of problems. That’s why I rooted for him to pull us out of it. Until he took office, in Western politics there was only one canon, one doctrine: “Institutions are everything, individuals are nothing. So institutions must be supported; if you run the institution well, it will solve the problems.” This is true insofar as, when things are going well, the personality of the political leader is secondary. But as soon as trouble strikes, all institutions become paralysed, and the only thing that helps is having strong leaders. And Donald Trump is the first strong leader in a long time. Previous US presidents – and current European leaders – basically claim that they’re good leaders because they’re good at running certain institutions. Donald Trump claims that he’s a good leader because there are problems and he’ll solve them. This is a completely different world, and right now we need the latter.
