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Zsolt Törőcsik: The National Assembly’s Committee on Defence and Law Enforcement held an extraordinary session yesterday. According to the Committee’s chairman, during the meeting it was revealed that the former Chief of General Staff of the Hungarian Defence Forces did not comply with the Minister’s instructions at NATO meetings, and did not represent the official Hungarian position on the Russo–Ukrainian war. The person concerned, Romulus Ruszin-Szendi, however, is talking about a “campaign of lies”. One of the questions I’ll be asking Prime Minister Viktor Orbán is what conclusions can be drawn from what we know so far. Good morning.
Good morning.
I understand that yesterday the Minister of Defence also briefed the NATO Deputy Secretary General on this whole affair. How much of what we’re talking about is political, and how much of it is a matter of national security?
We’re basically talking about a national security issue. On the table there are conflicting opinions, and on the table there are facts. The Minister of Defence has ordered an investigation. I see that yesterday the parliamentary committee tried to uncover the background to what happened. I’ll wait for the Minister of Defence to submit the report to the Government. However, regardless of any specific incident, the ministerial investigation will clarify whether at international forums the Chief of General Staff of the Hungarian Defence Forces represented the Hungarian government’s position – and it appears that he didn’t. And if not, we’ll find out why not, and why the glory of Ukraine was more important to him than that of Hungary. But that the whole thing could happen is remarkable in itself. When I was young in the Commie times, this sort of thing was described – perhaps in the film “The Witness”, or somewhere – as “the international situation is intensifying”. And indeed it is! So at the heart of the whole matter is the issue of Ukraine’s membership of the European Union. The European Union has decided that it wants to admit Ukraine, and there are two kinds of countries: some that are in favour of it, and some that are against it. We’re one of the opponents. Among the opponents, there are also two kinds. One of them, let’s say, is cunning, waiting before it says that it won’t support this, swimming with the tide, thinking that it will block the negotiations on membership during the negotiation process. But we say, “Don’t even start – because once you start, there will be big problems.” So we’re out in the open. And this is why Hungary has become the focus for international attacks. The forces that want to push Ukraine into the European Union are attacking Hungary – together with the Ukrainians. So here we’re facing a series of actions jointly organised by Brussels and Ukraine. And the pro-Ukrainian, and therefore pro-war, forces are deeply entrenched, it seems – even at the highest levels of the army. To me the whole case is about this: instead of every small cog, mechanism and person in the Hungarian state – from top to bottom, its lower ranks and employees – representing the national interest, somehow another idea has infiltrated, seemingly with considerable influence even in the military. This idea is that one shouldn’t follow the Hungarian government’s decisions, but instead – and in opposition to them – advocate pro-Ukrainian positions, and from there even exert pressure on Hungarians to support Ukraine’s membership. This is the context of the whole issue. I’m pleased that the Hungarian army and Hungarian politics have the capacity for self-defence, and that we’ve perhaps managed to detect one of the most serious infiltrations in a timely manner. Nevertheless I’m not happy about the whole debate, and I won’t make a secret of it either – because I believe that it’s good to keep the defence forces as far away from politics as possible. My conscience is clear in the sense that we weren’t the ones who brought politics into the army, but it was the former Chief of General Staff who entered politics. And so the army became involved in politics, and it would be good if we could put an end to this as soon as possible.
Yes, exactly. The [former] Chief of General Staff spoke of a campaign of lies, and the President of the Tisza Party described yesterday’s meeting as a diversionary tactic and theatre. But this is important, because Romulusz Ruszin-Szendi has indeed become an expert for the Tisza Party. So, in the context we’ve just been discussing, the international political context, what domestic political implications does this fact have?
Well, they’re building a puppet government. So let’s be under no illusions: Brussels and Ukraine are jointly building a puppet government. With this they want to change Hungary’s policy towards Ukraine after the next elections, and if possible sooner – I don’t think that will be possible under any circumstances, but the people will decide the matter. To do this, they’ve been looking for a candidate for prime minister, a party leader – and now they’re looking for a minister of defence. So let there be no doubt: what we’re faced with is another political concept, another strategy, another future for Hungary. If there’s a pro-Brussels puppet government, it will mean there will be a pro-Ukrainian government and a pro-war minister of war. This is the situation. Even the Hungarian parties don’t really hide this: Tisza and DK [Democratic Coalition] are essentially openly pro-Ukrainian political organisations.
You’ve said that the background to all this is Ukraine’s accession to the European Union, but at the same time there are voices – even at home – which say that Ukrainian accession isn’t realistic at all, and therefore this isn’t the right time to talk about this issue, and there are – or would be – much more important things. Why does the Government think that this issue, this topic, had to be – or has to be – put on the table now?
In Brussels it’s the only thing on the table. In Brussels it’s on the table every day. In the run-up to this summit the President of the European Council called me, we spoke for an hour on the phone, and 50 minutes of it was about Ukraine and Ukrainian membership – whether Hungary is willing to move and why not, and so on. So this is “the” question, the number one international political question in Brussels – not tomorrow, not the day after tomorrow, but here and now.
This debate is interesting because the Government is highlighting the disadvantages of Ukraine’s accession, while at the same time, for example, this week an EU Commissioner said that Ukraine’s membership would be a key security guarantee for the European Union. What would actually be guaranteed by Ukrainian membership of the EU?
The situation is even more serious than that. In Brussels they believe, and therefore they say, that Ukraine is fighting their war – because they believe that the European Union is at war. This is if we take what they say seriously – and sometimes it does no harm to do so, because there are probably thoughts behind the words. The idea is that Ukraine is Europe’s first line of defence, and that Ukraine is fighting our war – these are the words of Brussels. This means that if there were no Ukrainian army, then, according to the Brusselites, Moscow would attack the European Union. Otherwise, why should we be at war with Moscow on the territory of Ukraine? So in Europe there’s an idea that the most important task for the next ten years is to somehow confront the Russians. Now the way we’re confronting them is that they have this image in their minds that the Ukrainians are fighting for us. But in fact, as they say, this is a proxy war: Ukraine’s fighting instead of us, it’s a proxy war, which they think is inevitable. Our position is the exact opposite. We say let there be a ceasefire as soon as possible, then let there be peace, let’s settle the territorial and other issues, let’s reach an agreement with the Russians on economic issues, let’s go back to the Russian markets, let’s take advantage of the opportunities that Russia can offer the European economy and bring them in from there, and let’s conclude a security agreement with Russia as soon as possible. So if things continue as Brussels is planning, we’ll be spending all our money on armaments. We need to strengthen Europe’s defence capabilities, so that we have a military force that can be taken much more seriously than it is today. We’re also taking necessary resources away from other expenditures. These are not easy decisions, but we need to strengthen our military. But whether or not we get involved in an arms race is no small matter. The only way to avoid an arms race is to enter into arms limitation agreements with the opposing side. So now we’re at war, we need a ceasefire, we need peace, and we need arms limitation talks immediately. Otherwise all our money will be eaten up by the arms industry.
You’ve mentioned the increasing pressure coming from Brussels. In a situation like this, how much do the votes cast in Voks2025 matter, or do they matter at all? And, when there’s the amount of pressure that you’ve described, will they be taken into account in Brussels?
When I was in discussion with the President of the European Council in the conversation that I’ve just mentioned, I told him that he could try to convince me, and I was happy to listen to his arguments. I said that I also had some points for consideration, but unfortunately they all count for little – because the Hungarian people have an opinion on this, and they’re expressing it right now. Voks2025 is happening: this is the decisive factor. So if there’s no Voks2025 to support the Government’s position, it will be very difficult for the Hungarian prime minister to stand up to the headwinds and the storm from Brussels. I’m trying, but it’s difficult without the people’s help. Fortunately, we’re no longer alone. The Slovak parliament has recently decided not to support any sanctions against Russia, and so I see the formation of cooperation aimed at stopping what I think is an irrational policy from Brussels. We’ve had surveys carried out, we have analyses of European public opinion, and I can see that public opinion in eleven EU Member States – including the French and the Germans – is opposed to Ukraine’s accelerated accession, with only ten firmly in favour. So this is a big, open, live debate in Brussels today – and I believe that Ukraine’s membership of the European Union can be prevented if we courageously enter this debate, if we courageously represent our position, and if we don’t allow the existence in Hungary of a government that’s a puppet of Brussels and Ukraine. So if Hungary gets involved in this, we can defend ourselves. Defending ourselves means that people will keep what they have. Because Ukraine’s membership of the European Union would mean that people would lose a large part of what they have today, a considerable part of what they have. That would mean tax increases, it would mean lower pensions, it would mean the end of the reductions in household energy bills. So Hungary and Hungarian families have a lot to lose. If Ukraine enters the European Union, we’ll lose a significant part of our success, of our family wealth, of our family opportunities – because money will simply be sucked up like a sponge by Ukraine and pulled out of Central Europe. Our farmers will be in trouble. So we all know about these things, because we’ve thoroughly discussed them and talked through all the ramifications in the process of conducting Voks2025, and the Hungarian public is familiar with them. So now we have to defend what we have.
You’ve mentioned this opinion poll, which has shown that respondents in eleven countries reject fast-track membership for Ukraine. However, if we look at the level of political leadership, Hungary is the only Member State that rejects it. Why are the attitudes on this issue so different at the societal and political levels?
Well, this is why there are more than 30,000 bureaucrats working in Brussels. This is just so that you understand what we’re up against. So it’s not a question of the Hungarian prime minister going out and then finding himself face to face with 26 other prime ministers, but of 30,000 – more than 30,000 – bureaucrats buzzing, scheming, skulking, whispering and conspiring in the background. That’s a huge force! There isn’t a single government in Europe that has so many people in charge of its foreign policy. Not all of them are foreign policy specialists, of course, but we’re talking about bureaucrats working to enforce the competences that are part of the Union. And they put a lot of pressure on the Member States. So an imperial idea from Brussels – an idea from Brussels headquarters – is pushing all the Member States, and pushing them to start negotiations on Ukraine’s accession to the EU. It’s difficult to resist. Most European governments are fragile – take a look at the composition of European governments. The reason Hungary is so stable is because in 2022 the people elected a very stable government. It’s not only that there’s a two-thirds majority, but also that there’s no coalition pressure: there’s a Fidesz–KDNP government. In most European countries there are coalitions whose views are sometimes the same, sometimes not, whose interests often differ, and it’s difficult to create a united front. Hungary’s greatest advantage – its competitive advantage at the moment – is a stable, rock-solid government with a large majority. In the international race this is our greatest competitive advantage.
Speaking of government fragility, the Polish government is also facing a vote of confidence, because the opposition candidate – the right-leaning Karol Nawrocki – won the Polish presidential election. What impact might his victory have on political power relations in the EU, and what lessons can be drawn from what we’ve seen there?
Poland’s a very exciting country. The debates there are the same as in Hungary, with the difference that the outcome is variable. Here in Hungary, for sixteen years national, civic, Christian, family-friendly, pro-peace forces have managed to create a durable government. Poland hasn’t been so fortunate: there governments have replaced one another and, since the President has power, in Poland it’s much more difficult to set the direction of the country’s development than it is in Hungary. From a Hungarian point of view I think it’s a fantastic result, because after the last elections there’s a pro-Ukrainian, pro-war, pro-Brussels liberal government in Poland. And now a patriotic president has been elected. So the message I take from this is that the march of the patriots will continue. I’d also say that the Washington Express has arrived in Warsaw.
At the same time, in the campaign several sides repeatedly raised the accusation of foreign influence.
Well, nowadays in Europe that’s commonplace. Let’s put our own house in order! In 2022 our opponents – i.e. pro-Ukrainian and pro-Brussels political forces – received the equivalent of around 4 billion forints. This was the “rolling dollars” affair. After investigations by the Hungarian authorities, financial penalties were imposed. This is partly the reason the Hungarian socialist Left was almost destroyed: they violated the relevant laws, accepted billions of forints in foreign aid, and the State Audit Office and the Hungarian courts imposed consequences on them. This is one reason that they’re weakened, and it’s why there’s such confusion on the opposition side.
Wednesday was the Day of National Unity. Public media organised a fundraiser for the victims of the Székely Land disaster, raising more than 160 million forints – to which the Government added the same amount. We’re talking about what concrete steps need to be taken, but how do you assess the solidarity of people in the mother country, and the stand they’re taking for the Hungarians of Transylvania?
There’s a big problem here. The Government invited the President of Harghita County, Mr. Bíró, to its latest meeting, and yesterday I had the opportunity to meet with Hunor Kelemen. So we’ve seen the full depth of the problem, the disaster that’s happened there, and the extent of the destruction – which unfortunately we can hardly consider to be final, because there are still all kinds of unfavourable geological developments, and the whole mining complex could collapse. The experts are facing a very big professional challenge: billions of cubic metres of water, liquid with a very high salt concentration have to be removed from there somehow. We’ve also sent Hungarian geologists to study it, to help us understand the situation and to develop proposals. Work is underway there to divert the stream. But saving the mine will take time, in order to devise a strategy, after which we’ll know how much it will cost, and whether there’s any possibility of saving it. And then Hungary, together with the Romanian government, will be ready to provide assistance. The current unity shows that we exist, we’re alive. If there’s a problem in a symbolic location in the Hungarian world, because Parajd/Praid is a symbolic, powerful focus of identity, something unique. So if Hungarians are special, it’s precisely things like this that make us special: things like the history of the salt mine in Parajd/Praid of around two thousand years, the continuation of operations there after the arrival of the Hungarians, and now with Hungarians. So these are great stories that a nation is sustained by; and when they’re destroyed or threatened, we should feel the shock to our instincts, our nerves, our inner being. This is what has happened, and it has also opened up wallets – not only hearts, but also wallets: the amount that the Hungarians have put together will be exactly matched by what the Hungarian government will put together, and this is how we’ll send aid to Parajd/Praid.
Speaking of problems, the Mayor of Budapest has ordered a ten-minute shutdown of public transport at 11.50 a.m. today. Gergely Karácsony says that this is a warning to the Government for bleeding the capital dry. Will this warning be heard? What do you plan to do about the situation that’s now developed in the capital?
As far as this specific step is concerned, it’s perhaps unprecedented, and I don’t recall anything like it. The starting point of public policy is that there are public services that people need: water, heating, transport. And those who lead a community have a duty – not just a legal duty but a moral duty – to deliver public services to the people, and not to deny people public services. So it’s an unexpected development in Hungarian politics for someone, exercising municipal authority, to decide not to provide a public service. Lawyers are now debating whether or not it’s possible to do this at all, and there are legal and liability issues involved. But I certainly don’t see it as reasonable. Why should people be punished on any grounds? Let them travel, that’s what they need to do. This whole story fits into a larger framework that I’ve been witnessing with sadness for many months. It’s sad to see – well, I don’t know what to say – this floundering, as the city’s leadership is failing to deal with the challenges of everyday life in the capital. It’s a painful thing. Budapest is, after all, the nation’s capital. We’re talking about Budapest, but this affects everyone, because it’s the capital of the nation. We live here, we’re Budapesters, we love this city, it’s our home, it’s important to us. The Government is developing it, but I can see that the city’s management can’t cope. Governing isn’t easy, if I may say – after all, Budapest is a city of 1.7 million people, and there are countries in the European Union that are smaller than it. So coping with the tasks of governance here isn’t easy. There are leadership mistakes – perhaps I can say this as a fellow politician. So in essence the cause of all such chaos is always to be found in management mistakes. There’s no deputy mayor in the capital. There’s no budget. A budget’s been adopted which every lawyer has said is illegal: you can’t build a budget on the basis of not paying taxes. Company directors are expendable items, and the City’s up to its neck in corruption. Occasionally I watch coverage of the City Assembly, and it’s like a flea market. There’s no leadership, while the whole city is crying out for leadership. All I can say is that if you need help, we’ll help. So if you can’t manage, let us know, and we’ll come and help. Overall, I’ve looked at the numbers, because there are all kinds of disputes. I can tell you that in terms of forints Budapest gets more from the country than it gives. We don’t usually make a big deal of this, but just two weeks ago we gave 40 billion forints for the purchase of trams. Now BYD has come here, and we’ve brought the development centre of the big Chinese car company BYD from the Netherlands to Budapest. They didn’t just do this out of the goodness of their hearts: it required money, investment and support. This isn’t provided by the capital, but by the Government. So we’re putting hundreds of billions of forints into this city. We’re investing much more in the development of the Budapest economy than the City is itself – which is perhaps not investing anything, or only a negligible amount compared to what the Government’s putting in. This city is flush with money: it’s the richest city in Hungary, but it’s just not really being led.
What can the Government help with, and what does it expect in return from the capital?
The starting point for any help is to prevent this situation from happening again. So you need to understand the situation, pinpoint it and intervene where the problems are.
Let’s talk about one more issue, because about three months ago the Government announced a tougher crackdown on drugs – both in law enforcement and legislation. All the amendments relating to this are now in force. What’s been the experience of the first three months?
In Hungary there was an explosive surge, which is why we had to intervene so radically. We are gentle people – sometimes perhaps too gentle, to the point of meekness. Therefore it’s difficult for us to imagine that there are people who commit evil acts against others, just to make money. Of course, in this area of life the police have better instincts, and they have people who are prepared for this. But life in provincial Hungary was going along quietly when a few months ago – or now more like a year ago – it was struck by a contagion which spread like wildfire. These designer drugs appeared, which became so cheap that they undercut the price of alcohol. And suddenly their consumption has increased by orders of magnitude. Drug use tends to happen anyway, but it’s more usually young people who experiment with it, or highly educated individuals who feel that expanding their consciousness helps them achieve happiness. So that tends to happen – and of course the law prosecutes it, and restricts it. But we know about that, and up to now the Government and the police have handled this with varying degrees of success. There’s a new phenomenon that’s appeared at the bottom, among the socially disadvantaged in society, which is destroying poor families. The future of children from poor families is being devoured by this practice of poisoning for profit – which is essentially what the distribution of designer drugs is. Here we had to intervene swiftly, appoint a government commissioner, mobilise billions of forints, carry out many operations, launch 3,500 criminal proceedings, seize more than half a tonne of drugs, find and seize 250 million forints in cash,, hundreds of millions of forints worth of assets, and so on. So clearly we must dismantle, or even destroy, a network that’s been built up very rapidly. And I’m determined to do this, because anyone who gives drugs to our children is actually killing them. So here we’re talking about people – drug dealers – who are killing other people’s children. And as a parent I say that this is outrageous, and this is why I use terms like “manhunt”. So all the strong language, all the action, all the rigour, all the instruments of the state must be deployed, and this must be crushed.
Is there a need for further action – either in law enforcement or legislation?
Yes there is, and last week the Government voted for billions of forints to continue and expand the operations.
I’ve been asking Prime Minister Viktor Orbán questions about the case of the former Chief of General Staff, the fast-track accession of Ukraine to the European Union, and the fight against drugs.
