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György Szöllősi: Since the last Olympics we’ve known that you make precise prior calculations on gold medal prospects, and you’ve also said that on average about half of these are right. Was this the case this time too?
More or less. I was secretly hoping for eight, but when [former] President Pál Schmitt announced his prediction of five gold medals it gave me pause for thought, because after all he understands these things – unlike me. We could have had eight gold medals, just as we could have had four. So six was a valiant effort. If we look at the present this is acceptable, and you can say that we did well – we held our own. If we look to the future and use the current Olympics as a guide for the next Olympics, then what we’re capable of now isn’t enough: it’s only enough to keep us sliding down the rankings. Canada, South Korea, New Zealand and the Central Asian martial arts countries are overtaking us. What’s more, whether we like it or not, new sports are coming up alongside the classic sports, and one can’t afford to be left out of new sports. This is a difficult specialist task, which the Hungarian Olympic Committee will have to resolve, but we mustn’t write off our chances in the new sports being incorporated in the Olympic programme, because otherwise we’ll be holding ourselves back.
You’ve said that we’re holding our own, and in this regard László Fábián, Secretary General of the Hungarian Olympic Committee, said that this is a great development, because the competition is getting fiercer and now the number of medal-winning countries is approaching one hundred. But at the same time one can read comments claiming that we’re stagnating.
Retaining our place in the rankings is a huge achievement, and doing this has required the mobilisation of at least as much energy as used to be needed earlier for making progress. The Secretary General is right about that. But that’s trumped by the truth articulated by [the Olympic fencer] Áron Szilágyi. I read his words after this last Olympics: “What’s enough today won’t be enough tomorrow.” Another question is where we should aim to be on the basis of our traditions and our abilities, what a realistic expectation for Hungary can be, and whether there can be any expectations at all. Sport isn’t mathematical; results are influenced by form at any particular time and by unexpected new challengers – and in Taekwondo we’ve also produced a surprise ourselves. In sport we can’t expect success in the way we used to expect production indicators under socialism. But after all we somehow have to more or less define our place in the world. And this only partly depends on a sound assessment of the situation, on not needing to accept what seems to be reality, but also possibly changing it. I think our place is in the top ten: in the top ten in every Olympics, and in the top ten in the history of the Olympics as a whole. It’s not worth setting a lower target.
Sport isn’t mathematical, but there are national models that have been very successful, and perhaps even possible for us to follow.
New Zealand is definitely one to watch. It’s a likeable country with fantastic results. Just as in the past we had our era-defining genius in women’s sprint canoeing, who won three golds, now they’ve won three golds with Lisa Carrington. If we’d got those three first places, today we’d be talking about nine gold medals. It’s just that the New Zealand girls somehow paddled themselves ahead of us. There’s no doubt that there are seasonal changes or changes linked to an Olympic cycle, but the trend must be for us Hungarians to belong among the world’s top ten sporting nations.
I can almost hear it now: Why aren’t we rejoicing in the wonderful results in Paris? Why is nothing ever good enough for the Hungarians?
Hungarians are an ambitious breed, always wanting more and better. But the way in which we’re dissatisfied is telling. There’s a leftie-liberal discontent, a glib assumption that nothing’s good, that this is bad and that is bad. And of course the fact that it’s bad is always someone else’s fault. But there’s also a Christian tradition of dissatisfaction, and it’s alive and well in Hungary. I belong to this tradition, which means I’m constantly dissatisfied: “This is good, because six is very good, but it could have been seven, couldn’t it?” And it could even have been eight. And then I ask myself what I can do to make six into seven, and seven into eight. There’s a form of dissatisfaction that doesn’t destroy, doesn’t denigrate, doesn’t disparage, doesn’t devalue, but rather induces determination and assigns a task. And if in Hungary this good kind of dissatisfaction is in the majority, then sport will develop. But sport will immediately suffer if we enter an era of glibness in which the prevailing mood or cultural milieu is one of liberal discontent, for which nothing is ever good, and which never acknowledges its own responsibility for the fact that conditions are unsatisfactory. So the way in which we’re dissatisfied with our performance is important.
Are we on track to stabilise our position in the top ten? After Tokyo – when we were on the podium in thirteen sports – you said that the numbers showed that Hungarian sport is broad-based. Now we’ve done the same in fifteen sports.
We have untapped potential, and I think it’s the responsibility of the sporting leadership to recognise this. For example, it’s special that we did so well in cycling. This shows that there’s a mysterious link between Hungarians and that sport which is difficult to define. And it was a mistake for us to drop out of track cycling. The building of velodromes was part of the Hungarian plans for the development of the sport, but then it was cancelled due to lack of funds. At least two – but preferably three – should be built: one in the east, one in the west and one in Budapest. Then there are the new branches of martial arts. In Hungary, karate is more popular and more people practise it than Taekwondo, but we also have potential in martial arts. I’ve been very worried about boxing, because there’s never any peace within the federation. Here we have two fantastic living legends: Madár [“Bird”] and Kokó [Zsolt Erdei and István Kovács – the ed.]. Somehow they’re not now involved in the sport, and cannot add their own legendary presence to it – which is something we’re in need of. And of course we mustn’t forget that boxing is actually an underground sport, with rooms in the basement which you literally have to go downstairs to. This is where hundreds of determined young guys have to train in order for there to be one or two to represent Hungary with distinction, like Koko and Madár did.
And now there are also determined ladies.
That’s a tough one. Somehow for us men it’s a strange sight to see ladies punching one another. There are major debates about it. But on the whole whether they want to do it is up to them; and if they want to do it, then on the whole we should support them. We’ve come close, and we could have been there with a medal – or even atop the podium – if our young compatriot Luca Hámori hadn’t had to fight against a mannish opponent. We trust the Olympic movement to find a reassuring solution to this awkward problem. The bottom line is that in Hungarian boxing something has changed. At the moment wrestling isn’t part of our skill set. Wrestling is one of the few combat sports – not only in Hungary but even beyond our borders – that has an academy system. I’d thought that from a broader base talent would emerge in greater numbers, as we did fantastically well in Tokyo. At this stage we don’t know whether this is a temporary setback or there are deeper-seated problems, but I hope that the sporting authorities will find out. And then there’s canoeing, which didn’t yield us any golds. This is why there’s such a bittersweet note at the end of the sentence: lots of nice medals, but no golds. In these sports we’ve usually had outstanding geniuses: Áron Szilágyi in fencing, Danuta Kozák in canoeing and Katinka Hosszú in swimming. At the moment we don’t have an athlete who can bring home two – or even three – gold medals, which would add a lot to our medal tally.
Couldn’t Kristóf Milák be like that?
One can’t fully fathom geniuses. I was talking to him the other day, by the way, and it was a great conversation; but it became clear to me that he’s a genius who can’t be fathomed – and doesn’t need to be. Like trainers, I also build a fortress from people – that’s how government works. It takes a lot of talented people to eventually produce results from a team. But there are maverick geniuses for whom it’s best if we don’t have a say in how they do things. You have to leave it to them. In Hungary there will always be geniuses who need to be treated very differently. In football we had Zoli Varga, in swimming we have Kristóf Milák, and in pentathlon we had our András Balczó. We can’t put these people in the same category, as they’re born geniuses. We’re very proud of them. But we don’t need to understand the achievements of every Hungarian genius. We simply have to be glad that we have them. Leaders shouldn’t try to shoehorn them into a model that’s successful for nine out of ten people. And I could give examples from politics. Help, encourage and leave them be. Whether this will bring out Kristóf Milák’s ability to beat the world in events other than the butterfly stroke remains to be seen. Maybe he’ll just jump in the pool and surprise everyone again. I’m watching the news coming over from America, and maybe we can expect more from Hubert Kós. If we have two or three era-defining people in fencing, canoeing and swimming at the same time, the golds will mount up. The minimum for an era-defining genius is two or three golds.
If you could shift any Hungarian competitor or team up one level, which would it be?
Either of the two Hungarian lads in the canoe sprint 1,000 metres. I was as sure of their victory as I was of almost anything. I was sure that we have two world class athletes who can’t be beaten. But you can’t write off the Czechs. I remember this man Josef Dostál from previous world championships. He lost about ten kilograms, prepared himself and beat us. I’d never have imagined that. If I could turn up the dial somewhere and thus yield us a higher value medal, then it would be in the canoe sprint blue riband event.
In the medal table our lead compared with our regional neighbours is striking, and even seems to be growing.
Yes, but I draw the opposite conclusion from what I read about it. It’s good that we’re competing with the countries in the region and that we’re ahead of all of them. But it’s not good for us if they’re not in constant competition with us. What we’re interested in are more successful Romanians, more successful Croatians, more gold medals for the Serbs, or medals for the Slovaks. Anyone who thinks that Hungary can be permanently successful by breaking away from its region is mistaken – and that’s true for both sport and politics. Central Europe must be successful. And within this region of Central Europe we must be first if possible – or at least be fighting for first place. We need an upward trajectory for the whole region – for all our neighbours. Because this is what will lead us to the point at which we can have Central European championships again. Central European championships used to play an extremely important role – sometimes even surpassing a full-fledged European championship. If we were able to harmonise our leagues, say in football, and organise Central Europe into one or two leagues, there would always be two or three teams from the region in the UEFA Champions League. We should also rejoice in the success of our regional rivals. I’d have liked to see a Serbian–Hungarian water polo final.
Oh, yes, team sports. Here too, the situation is contradictory: we haven’t had four teams in the games for a long time, and we almost had five; but at the same time, not winning a water polo means we can feel deprived. What do you think about this?
In team sports there’s no such thing as enough. We should be in the Olympics in all the classic team sports, but – in addition to water polo and handball – we should also at least have a chance in football, basketball and volleyball. As far as water polo’s concerned, we don’t feel deprived, but disappointed. In water polo to begin with we’re disappointed if we don’t win, and that’s the starting point. And now we don’t even have a silver medal, but fourth place. In Hungary people sometimes complain that only gold is respected. This is a misunderstanding, as it’s not true. In Hungary people’s judgement is also sound in the field of sporting achievements. They have a very high regard for the county championships and the national championships, and even for those who finish eighth in a national swimming or athletics championship. Every Hungarian knows that there’s a lot of work involved in it. And there can be no Kristóf Milák or Hubert Kós if tens of thousands of people aren’t swimming every day – people who will never make it to the Olympics. This is why Hungarians value sixth place, silver and bronze. But Hungarians know something else: that a champion is in a different category. Silver and bronze are separated by a small distance, but silver and gold are a world apart. Doing well, being good and winning a medal for it is one thing. But beating the whole world is another. In water polo we played well because we have a lot of good players. We did fantastic things. One thing we didn’t do was that we didn’t win. You have to be able to win. There are world-class players in the Hungarian national team. Maybe I’m biased and I’m preaching to the converted, but, for example, what Gergő Zalánki does in the pool! He’s like a footballer who’s constantly nutmegging his opponents. I’m not saying that the reason for our fourth place was a lack of outstanding players of class. It was more that the team lacked that little extra needed to win. Four defeats isn’t what you expect from a Hungarian water polo team at the Olympics.
But Michelle Gulyás was a great example of the ability to win.
It was one of the great experiences of my life to see Gábor Balogh’s heroic silver medal in Sydney, and I’m glad that now he’s accepted a role in the sport. János Martinek, the outgoing national captain, was also once on top of the world. Judging by the results of the last two or three years, I feel that Hungarian pentathlon has returned to its great era in both the men’s and women’s divisions. It’s fantastic that the last classic pentathlon gold medal went to Hungary, and was won by a lady. If anyone can say something about victory, Michelle Gulyás can! I read in her statement that even though she started from second place before the running, she said that in the end she felt that she’d still win it even if she broke a leg.
Yes, that she could even have beaten Usain Bolt.
That’s it! Winning is a frame of mind. And she gave us a fantastic example of that. And although all victories are wonderful, we also had an epic victory with Kristóf Rasovszky. There, in the Seine – which first of all has a current, and secondly you don’t know what the hell is in it – the way he took the lead, and no matter what happens, if pigs started to fly, he’d still win! This is in a sport in which no Hungarian man has ever won an Olympic gold medal. Nothing can distract someone who wants to win, and they especially won’t dwell on the burden being carried and what others will think. Nothing else matters, and even if the sky falls in, they’ll still win. This is what makes a champion different from everyone else. There are also linguistic expressions that refer to mental illness in Hungarian sport, such as the burden of being a favourite. But the burden is borne by the underdog, not the favourite. In Hungary there’s also a culture of excusing failure – which, although it’s well meaning, is depressing. If there’s a failure, we immediately excuse the athlete. In doing so, we’re actually degrading them. An athlete doesn’t need to be excused. Because he or she is a serious person who can tolerate failure. There’s no need to handle him or her with kid gloves, there’s no need for that: “I wanted to do it; I didn’t manage it this time, but I’ll do it next time.”
You’ve mentioned the polluted Seine. It was the height of cynicism that, knowing full well that it was infectious and that the competitors would be hospitalised, the organisers forced them into the water and shrugged off the risks and the real humiliation for the competitors. Could we afford to make such a scandalous decision as hosts?
Let me give an example from my own profession. When, a few years ago, there was a debate in the European Union about some countries exceeding their agreed budget deficit thresholds, the French were one of those countries. I asked Commission President Juncker if the EU would be taking action against all those countries. “What about the French?” I asked. The answer was, “The French are the French, there won’t be any sanctions on them.” We mustn’t believe that the world’s nations are treated equally. Hungarian victories are particularly valuable because Hungarians are generally treated unfavourably. It’s a rare moment and a rare sport in which we can represent ourselves at a level where we’re treated fairly, or perhaps in a favourable environment. We usually start from a position of disadvantage and win from there.
Earlier you mentioned classic team sports and new sports that we need to get involved in. In field hockey, for example, we were already in the Olympics in 1936, but never since then.
Under the communist system some traditional Hungarian sports were quite simply wiped off the map. One such sport, which was very much a middle-class sport, was field hockey – but also rowing. Of course under socialism canoe sprint was nicely developed in its place; yet it shouldn’t have been in its place, but alongside it. Rowing could have an excellent place in university sport. And, by the way, sixteen of the nineteen medals won in Paris were won by university students; so we can hope for more from universities in competitive sport than perhaps we previously thought. But speaking of middle-class sports, it’s a fantastic achievement that as a country without a sea coast we’ve been involved in sailing in the last two or three Olympics, competing on a par with – or at least challenging – countries with not only sea coasts but even ocean coasts. If a series of talented competitors is being produced by sailing, the reason is that there’s something that Hungarians see in the sport that others may not, making us fit to be among the best; and if this is the case, then we need to help such sports. In general, sports federations shouldn’t act as authorities, but as service providers. Of course, performance should be expected and order should be maintained, but the basic attitude of leadership coming from both the Government and sports bodies should be more like that of a service provider.
Speaking of sports leadership, in Hungarian sport the period after an Olympics is always a time for summing up, evaluation and balance sheets. How does this happen?
I’ve already done the first summary, because when Michelle Gulyás ran and won her race on the closing day of the Olympics, I sent a quick assessment in an SMS to the Secretary of State for Sport. It consisted of three words: “You can stay.” So I can confidently say that we’ll launch ourselves into the next Olympics preparation period with the current Secretary of State for Sport, Adam Schmidt. And recently I’ve already been working with him, looking at the methodology for evaluating the Olympics. A new string of sports development agreements is about to be concluded by the Secretary of State.
Is an economy drive expected here, like, say, the one for academies this year?
“Economy drive” isn’t a good phrase, as it’s not a question of saving, but of spending sensibly. No waste is acceptable, but at the same time every penny must be available for what’s needed. Every forint spent unnecessarily hurts twice over – because on the one hand it’s a waste, and on the other hand it’s been taken away from somewhere. This is why we need tight, disciplined funding that provides all the conditions needed to do the job. This is my principle not only in sport but also in general.
A few days after the Olympics, Balázs Fürjes, a Hungarian member of the International Olympic Committee, said that perhaps the Hungarian Olympic Committee should be given a greater role – I’d say a budget – in sports governance. This is something which has been done before. What’s your opinion?
We won’t shy away from this. In the world of sport there’s constant debate about what makes good sports governance. In our period of government alone, we’ve tried at least two or three models. It’s not for the Government to draw lessons; it’s more for the athletes who have performed at world level and stayed in sport as leaders. The Government’s ready to cooperate, and even to give the Hungarian Olympic Committee more opportunities. And then, in a painful, bittersweet moment, let’s remember that this Olympics should have been held in Budapest.
It was Zsolt Gyulay who said that we could have organised an Olympics that was a hundred times better.
The multiplier of one hundred is perhaps an exaggeration – if not a huge one.
Before we met, I asked my colleagues what question they’d ask the Prime Minister if they were me. Most of their questions were about a possible Olympics in Budapest.
Once you’ve entered a dead-end street and backed out, don’t turn into the same dead end again. Obviously, if Budapest’s city government won’t support a Budapest Olympics, there will be no Olympics here. The Government can exert pressure, but it still won’t happen. All we can do is provide the Hungarian Olympic Committee with all the conditions they need to prepare for hosting the Olympics. If the Hungarian Olympic Committee decides that we want the Olympics, and if it backs Budapest, then there’s no doubt that the Government will support it, 1,000 per cent. But we can’t make up for the lack of will, determination and purpose. This is a Budapest matter and a Budapest decision.
In Paris foreign journalist colleagues asked us when Budapest will host the Olympics, because they see that we’ve staged a successful World Aquatics Championships, a successful World Athletics Championships, and European Championship football matches; and in 2026 we’ll be hosting the UEFA Champions League final.
The golden gates have opened, and one only has to pass through them. It was already on its way here, we could have brought the current one here; but we can bring the 2036 Games here if we want to. I don’t think that any venue other than Budapest or Hungary would be more in line with the principles laid down by the International Olympic Committee. There’s a directive not to build a new sports city for the Olympics, but to use existing facilities. No other country in the world has as many facilities suitable and tested for the Olympics in its modern version as Hungary has: the National Athletics Centre, the Puskás Arena, and we’re sitting here in the Duna Arena. We have everything. Some mobile halls need to be constructed and dismantled, and there you are. For many decades it wasn’t realistic to think about hosting the Olympics, because the country simply wasn’t in the right state. Neither were its sporting facilities, and nor did the country’s infrastructure give the impression of a place where the world could be hosted and visitors could be guests in a country that was confident, proud of its achievements, and full of well-founded hope. Because this is what the Olympics are all about. Hungary wasn’t in a position to present such an image, and that wasn’t the reality. The situation is different now.
Is taking back the airport [into public ownership] an important step in this respect?
The gateway to the country – the airport and the road leading from there to the city – will be repaired in no time at all. We’re on the verge of major developments there, regardless of the Olympics. But the point is that we have a country that’s capable of being a place where people who believe in making the world a better place – and all athletes are such people – can feel at home. This capability is not only in our facilities, but also in our spirit. We’ve never been in such a situation before. The golden gates are open.
Whereas in the old days you had the feeling that one had to lasso a country that was willing to host the Olympics, now almost every week someone announces their intention to host the Olympics in India, Poland, South Korea, Istanbul…
It would have been easier to win the current 2024 than to bid for the next one – but that’s in the past, that ship has sailed. I don’t think we’ll find another opportunity that will spur this city’s development as much as an Olympics in Budapest.
Are you surprised that, contrary to earlier reports, Thomas Bach isn’t standing again for the post of IOC President?
Hungarian sport owes a lot to Thomas Bach. It’s been a long time since there was such a benevolent head of the Olympic movement, who understood Central Europe, and who liked Hungarians and appreciated the achievements of Hungarians. He was acutely aware of the unpaid debt to our country, a country that had a major role in the creation of the Olympic movement, that’s been a loving supporter of the Olympic ideal ever since, that’s put in fantastic performances, that’s in the top ten, but that’s never been allowed to host an Olympic Games or show its love of sport by hosting an Olympic Games. I’m not saying that he lived with this knowledge day and night, but he was keenly aware that this wasn’t right. And he gave Hungary every chance to change the situation. We couldn’t take advantage of this. It came down to us. So his departure is a bad thing, because a friend is leaving. But the job of the leader of all sports – President of the IOC – is an arduous task, which drains one of life. So as a friend I was rather glad that he decided to leave after great success and with his head held high, as a healthy man.
Perhaps the scandals may also have played a part in the departure of the IOC President. We used to talk about sport as the guardian of traditional values, but now national identity is fading not only in clubs, but often in national teams too; and in Paris we’ve seen revival of the debate about who can be considered a female athlete. And all this is quite apart from the opening ceremony, which was fuelled by an aggressive ideology.
My basic nature is that I’m a person of serenity, hope and belief in good things. I don’t like to get up and go to bed with a worldview that destroys one’s optimism about the future. But it would also be a mistake not to see that everything we hold dear is under full-spectrum attack – including in politics, but also in sport, the media, entertainment, everywhere. For a Hungarian the whole world makes no sense without national identity, which is under attack, and which suffers insults that were once unprecedented. What in the past might have seemed to be nationalism is now existential, like our daily bread. As patriots, we must stand up for our country and our national identity, otherwise it will be devoured by attacks. It’s the same with gender. I was born in a world – and Hungary is still in a world – in which we know that someone is either a man or a woman. In the West it’s already thought that people are not binary beings. But then what are they? There are huge problems here. If we don’t put our foot down and stand our ground, we’ll see the overthrow of the world in which we can live lives most worthy of humans, in which a woman is a woman, the French are French, Hungarians are Hungarian and Americans are American. You often hear John Lennon’s song “Imagine”, which has also emerged as an anthem at some Olympic venues. Has anyone ever read the lyrics?
A Marxist creed.
I’ve done what Lennon asked me to do: I’ve imagined the world he was singing about; and I don’t like it. I don’t want to live in that world. In the world of Europeans or Westerners there’s always been a self-destructive tendency to want to ditch natural national, religious or sexual identities and attachments – which are seen as burdensome – and to persuade others to ditch theirs. Of course, everyone can live as they wish. If someone wants to ditch those things, they can. But this is different. There’s a worldwide campaign being waged against our values. Well, this is where we must resist. We must accept ourselves as we are: that we are European, that we are Hungarian, that we are Christian, that we are men and we are women. The world will not leave even sport untouched.
If this weren’t an Olympic year, we’d probably be assessing the football season in more detail. Briefly, what do you make of the fact that never before have so many Hungarian clubs competed for qualification for European cup competitions?
I’m not satisfied with this situation. It’s better than it was, but it’s far from what we want. I think you have to hate the Government a lot, you have to hate Hungarian football a lot – and maybe even your own country – to say that there are no positive changes in this sport. No sane person can say that. Whether we’re developing at a fast enough pace is debatable, and indeed it should be debatable. I’m one of those who would like to develop faster. There’s a reason we created the academy system. It wasn’t by chance that I personally committed myself to creating one of the Hungarian football academies. I can’t wait until we see a situation where at least five out of ten outfield players in top-flight Hungarian clubs – not only in the second division, but also in the Hungarian first division – are Hungarian. Already today I can see enough talent and ability in the youngsters coming out of the academies for at least half of the outfield players in twelve Hungarian clubs to be these Hungarians. But we’re not making this happen – even at the Puskás Academy we’re not there yet. When we’re fielding five or six home-grown players, and four or five foreigners, then we can say, “Well, this is what we were thinking of.” Until then, as the Fradi [Ferencváros] faithful say: “More, more, more, this isn’t enough!”
