László Pityinger Dopeman: Okay, we’re live now.
Gyula Mocsár (Gyuszi Mocsár Jr.): We’re live from now.
László Pityinger Dopeman: Welcome to all our viewers. This is DOPERANO$, and we have a fantastic guest with us: Viktor Orbán, Prime Minister of Hungary. I’ll give him a round of applause. There’s the applause, that’s all I’d say.
Hello. Thank you for the recognition. We’re getting a little ahead of ourselves.
Gyula Mocsár: Hello, and welcome here with us!
László Pityinger Dopeman: The secret to getting ahead is getting started. My partner is Gyuszi Mocsár Jr. Before we begin, I have a good story involving the Prime Minister. We met when the online civic circles were being founded. I was up at the Carmelite [Prime Minister’s Office], where theoretically the Prior is no longer present. I took a gift for the Prime Minister – a book I’d intended for him. The point is, I get up very early and just pick up the book because its cover reminds me of the one that I want to take there. And I show it to the Prime Minister, saying, “I recommend this book with great affection, please read it.” I thought it was a book by Alan Watts, the greatest thinker of the 20th century: “The Book”. I say it’s a foundational work, and I recommend it with affection. And the Prime Minister looks at it and says, “Ah, very good book, Buddhist Institute, everything.” Then I just say, “Yes”. He flips through it and asks, “Is this book for me?” And written inside is the message, “Hi, Viki!”
Gyula Mocsár: Informal enough to…
László Pityinger Dopeman: My girlfriend’s name is Viktória, and for Christmas I bought her a book by Thich Nhat Hanh called “Reconciliation: Healing the Inner Child”, and it turned out that that’s what I’d brought there. I said, “Prime Minister, I’m sorry, that isn’t for you.” So the book was returned, and right then I felt I’d made a fool of myself; but the story’s a funny one, that can be told again and again. But now I’d like to hand the book over.
I suspected that you didn’t have a girlfriend any longer and that you needed to make use of the book: “Viktor” or “Viki” – you could have got away with it.
László Pityinger Dopeman: In the end, you would have taken the book. You would have taken it. Fortunately, here it is. It brightens up my life.
In any case, thank you very much. For the real one too.
László Pityinger Dopeman: Yes.
Gyula Mocsár: Do you remember the moment when you saw the greeting that began “Hi, Viki!”?
Yes, as I said…
László Pityinger Dopeman: You found it strange, I saw that.
I thought that László had had a difficult evening.
Gyula Mocsár: Then you cottoned on to what had happened.
László Pityinger Dopeman: In my opinion, he’s one of the greatest thinkers of the 20th century, and this book… You’ll read it when you have time.
It’ll be summer soon.
László Pityinger Dopeman: I think this book adds a lot to the already existing and established worldview, especially in an era when the world we live in demands a great deal of flexibility. But does the Prime Minister believe that every breath is a new person?
I haven’t thought about that. If we’re talking about such matters, I’m a traditional Calvinist, and I follow the relevant teachings quite rigidly. I don’t really reinterpret them, but rather try to obey and follow them – which isn’t easy either.
László Pityinger Dopeman: Not at all, no. It’s just that many people have asked me what reincarnation means. And I, for example, was baptised a Roman Catholic, but now I follow a Zen tradition, which is a practice, a meditation practice. But the point is that nothing is permanent: everything in the world is in flux. People often talk about the transmigration of souls, and what it consists of. But Zen grasps the world that exists here, it actually deals with what we are. And in this regard, my interpretation is that since man is a precision machine, every breath produces a new person…
Aha!
…so things are constantly changing. Science has shown that our brains are made up of a billion neurons, and for every piece of information, a new branch is created, like a river.
Well, I don’t understand any of that, but I do know that if a person doesn’t have what is called “death” sorted out, then they can’t sort out their life either. I’m sure of that.
László Pityinger Dopeman: That’s a beautiful thought.
Because if you don’t know how it will end, you don’t know how to adjust your steps, you don’t know what weight things have. But I suggest we don’t talk about death…
László Pityinger Dopeman: No, this came up in connection with living faith…
Let’s talk about life!
You were just talking about living faith, which is why it was exciting for me, and that every breath is a new person. Because I don’t want to avoid what I think excites a lot of people here.
Let’s not avoid anything – we’re here to talk.
László Pityinger Dopeman: And that’s part of our story, isn’t it? When I did that sculpture head thing in 2013.
Yes, László – to be precise, you kicked me in the head.
László Pityinger Dopeman: Not you, fortunately – otherwise it would be difficult to talk.
Come on, don’t underestimate me.
László Pityinger Dopeman: No, no! I wouldn’t do that. I follow the Prime Minister’s activities, and…
Gyula Mocsár: It’s possible that you, Laci, wouldn’t be here…
No, I’m good in close combat. But let’s not try that now – that’s not why we’ve got together, is it?
László Pityinger Dopeman: No, I’ve always been very interested in the human aspect of this from the Prime Minister’s viewpoint, because it certainly aroused some kinds of feelings. I felt an apology was necessary. Some people now say that such a gesture is really about trying to gain some advantage – but it isn’t. I want to explain why I chose to apologise, because I think it’s important that people understand what it meant and what kind of feeling went with it.
Yes, but, you know, I suffer from things like that. Let’s say it’s spectacular…
László Pityinger Dopeman: Me too.
…when someone gets kicked in the head, but – how can I put it? – I have daily experience of the world of stomach punches and blows below the belt. So on their own things like that don’t shake me up. That’s why I try – and even in 2013 I tried – to handle it calmly. The first question – I remember the incident, by the way…
László Dopeman: You weren’t allowed to forget it.
The first question I asked myself was whether this guy was being paid for it or not. Because that’s the core of everything. Because if someone’s being paid, then there’s no need to think about why it happened. If they weren’t paying you, but you were doing it on your own, then if they weren’t paying you it’s worth thinking about what could have led you to kick me hard. Then one can talk and think about it sensibly. And then they said that they weren’t paying you, and the general opinion in Fidesz…
László Pityinger Dopeman: By the way, they really weren’t.
…was that you’re not the kind of guy who’d be paid for that. Then I thought about what could be behind it. I came to the conclusion that you’re in show business, after all, and show business is a stage; and one should never take what happens on stage at face value, because it’s part of show business, so it’s not worth taking to heart. That was my opinion, and I didn’t harbour any personal resentment or anger – I just thought that if that’s what it takes for a good night, then fine, but surely there could be other ways.
László Pityinger Dopeman: As I’ve said, we have a similar way of looking at life. By the way, I made a public apology – but that was also as a consequence of practicing Zen. So, in my mind, of course, it was that we were on the “rock-and-roll stage”, and in a way we still are. So I’ve owned up to it, even now, along with everything written about it.
It doesn’t look good for you. You’ll be in the same boat as me.
László Pityinger Dopeman: Yes, in a similar way. But the point is that I thought about how the Prime Minister also has loved ones, and that this couldn’t have been good for them. And although this is part of the whole business, I apologised for it, because my goal in life is to be as kind as possible to all sentient beings – even those who don’t like me very much. So in this matter I’ll extend a friendly hand, even though this has already happened between us.
Gyula Mocsár: This is a historic moment!
God bless you! God bless you, László!
László Dopeman Pityinger: And you too, and all of us, success and prosperity, happiness, fulfilled goals, as long as it feels good. Do you have a favourite rap song right now?
No, because rap isn’t my genre. So I’ll be honest, maybe I should be ashamed of this…
László Pityinger Dopeman: No.
…but when I was getting ready to come here, I asked my colleagues to find a song by László, because I’d never heard a single song by you in my life, and I couldn’t come here and say that here’s a…
László Pityinger Dopeman: Rapper…
…rapper, and then he asks me if I know his songs, and I say I’ve never heard one in my life. That would be embarrassing, so I quickly listened to two or three. But rap isn’t my genre, it’s too much for me.
László Pityinger Dopeman: I believe you.
But it’s always been too much for me. This isn’t about you. These American guys with their big gold chains around their necks, their cars and their girls, it’s too much for me. So I’m just not interested in it – I’d rather spare myself that.
László Pityinger Dopeman: Rock music instead?
Of course. Led Zeppelin, right?
László Dopeman Pityinger: Oh, I love them. My father loved them too, by the way. But I’ve just made a rap song…
Good.
László Dopeman Pityinger:...that you might like. It’s called “Dikhtaturha”.
But I do watch Dikh TV sometimes, since…
László Pityinger Dopeman: It’s called “Dikhtaturha” because, you know, [the Hungarian rapper] Majka staged this well-heeled rebellion, and I tried to show that you’re still free to do that – even in this “dictatorship”.
But that’s a different situation. So when I asked my colleagues why they thought Majka did that, they said it was for the cash. I’m done with that, I’m not going to sit for an interview with him – unlike you, who didn’t do what you did for the money. Because when people buy you, it’s like they’re emptying you out. So from then on, you’re like an empty shell, aren’t you? So you lose that…
László Pityinger Dopeman: Substance.
…which is actually interesting. Because the interesting thing about people is their freedom, their sovereignty, their authenticity, their own thoughts, their own feelings. But the moment you’ve been bought and you’re no longer yourself, you lose what makes you interesting. So I’m glad I’m sitting here now, but I won’t go into Majka’s studio.
László Pityinger Dopeman: I can tell you what came of it back then…
Aha!
László Dopeman Pityinger: …because it’s very interesting. Many people don’t understand the shift in how I became a supporter, and even now they don’t interpret it properly. Many people say that I got to like you and your policies out of pragmatism, and that even today I don’t really see things from a Fidesz perspective…
What I’m saying is…
László Pityinger Dopeman: So I’m the kind of voter you have to work hard for.
Indeed!
László Pityinger Dopeman: I’m a pragmatic voter.
But that’s what I meant, not just about you, but – don’t get me wrong – your kind…
László Pityinger Dopeman: I understand.
…of characters are like that, in my opinion. They’ll never be my followers in the sense of loyalty, but they’re independent guys who have their own ideas about the world. And then if they think they need me, or that what I think coincides with their thoughts, as you say, I’ll fight for them, then they’ll be willing to vote for me. Otherwise, they’ll send me to hell. That’s pretty much the situation in District VIII [in Budapest], I think.
Gyula Mocsár: Anyway, speaking of loyalty, I think I can say that in light of the past few days and the events that happened, I can tell you that by 2026 – this isn’t a campaign speech, mind you – you pretty much have one vote secured from someone under 30. Because, honestly, you used that word “loyalty”. And in the past few days, it might have been easier to distance yourself from László Pityinger Dopeman, but…
I received that kind of advice.
László Pityinger Dopeman: I suppose so.
Mocsár Gyula: But it’s a slippery slope. And you didn’t make your decision on that basis.
László Pityinger Dopeman: No.
Gyula Mocsár: But I said “I’ll stand by this man”, even if, well, it’s pretty clear from the Facebook post and so on. And I said that Hungary’s prime minister has the balls to represent me anywhere in the world, and I’ll dare to stand by him.
Thank you for saying that.
László Pityinger Dopeman: That’s right.
Thank you for saying that. Of course, the question is, why am I here? I’m here because I approached László. I told him that there are problems in the online space, things have gone wrong, and if we don’t do something, then this irresponsibility, hatred, loathing, disgrace – well, it will cause big problems, and we need to do something. I gathered people from all corners of the world – because the President of the Chamber of Commerce and Industry is in the other corner, I think…
László Pityinger Dopeman: He’s in a very different corner, of course.
…than László. But I gathered everyone I thought could do something about this issue. And after that – and this is why I’m here now – László was attacked. He was attacked. So if he hadn’t been attacked, I wouldn’t have come. I came because he was attacked. Why was he attacked? Because we discussed something that I think we both consider important, and that’s why he was attacked. They hadn’t attacked him before. Well, no one was kicking him in the butt or hassling him because of his previous statements…
László Pityinger Dopeman: Records or anything else…
…his music, his albums, until he showed his agreement with me. I thought that in a sense this man was attacked because of me. And if someone is attacked because of me, then I’ll come on his show and make this clear: Folks, enough is enough!
Gyula Mocsár: And it’s enough for me.
László Pityinger Dopeman: Because he was hesitating, by the way. He told me the day before yesterday.
But you should hesitate.
László Pityinger Dopeman: What are you hesitating about, kiddo?
Gyula Mocsár: As a protest voter for the Two-tailed Dog Party, I’ll put it that way. Because all this political fuss and communication and everything else, the poster issue and everything else, is obviously a matter of taste; but on a macro level, on an economic level, if we get into the economy…
László Pityinger Dopeman: Well, we see what’s going on.
Gyula Mocsár: We see bank statements, we see how much people are actually earning, and we compare it with how much they say it is on television, on various shows.
But, Gyula, hesitate! If I can give you some advice, hesitate…
Gyula Mocsár: There’s no point now.
László Pityinger Dopeman: He’s not hesitating anymore.
Gyula Mocsár: It’s still possible.
Don’t give up, a lot can happen in politics.
Gyula Mocsár: Of course!
There’s no need to rush into it. So I’m never a believer in blind commitment, and I don’t encourage my own people to be either, but rather to constantly rethink things. Even those who have been with me for 100 years, and I with them: I always say that we should constantly rethink everything, strengthen ourselves, our position, our relationships, and then decide. So just keep that in mind. As for the money, I see the numbers too. For me, that’s…
Gyula Mocsár: Where do you see them, by the way?
Well, the entire NAV [Hungarian tax authority] is at my feet.
László Pityinger Dopeman: He has oversight.
I’m exaggerating a little – I can’t look at personal data.
Gyula Mocsár: Is this a list?
So if I were to say, “Give me Gyula Mocsár’s data”, I wouldn’t get it. That’s forbidden.
László Pityinger Dopeman: Of course.
But I can ask for the statistical processing of all tax payments from last year: how much people earned, and how much the bottom ten per cent and top ten per cent earned. I always do this with state employees, because with state employees there’s the salary that people receive – which isn’t very high, by the way, I’m trying to raise it, but it’s still not high. And there are all kinds of allowances and bonuses added to it, so that it becomes their income. And if I only look at the salary, the picture I get is misleading, and I can’t make a good decision. So I usually ask NAV again – not for individual data, but for the aggregate data for everyone, for how much they earned. And from that I can see what’s happening. So it’s never enough. We in Fidesz say that there’s no such thing as a number to which nothing can be added. So if I earn 10, the question is, “Why don’t I earn 11?” If I earn 11, “Why don’t I earn 12?” So there’s no upper limit to human dissatisfaction, and people will never say, “OK, that’s fine now” – because they always want one more, and rightly so. But we need to know where we started from. And I know where we started from. Well, here it was a disaster. I don’t think they brought me back [into government] because they really wanted me, although I’m sure some of them did. But in 2002 I lost the election.
László Pityinger Dopeman: I know that, I remember that.
In 2006 too. And in 2010 I won by a landslide. I don’t think that those who hated me before suddenly started liking me, but rather it was simply that things were really messed up, if I can put it that way – it was total chaos.
László Pityinger Dopeman: Well, that’s how it was…
And they said that someone had to try to restore order, and maybe they didn’t like the guy, but after all he’d been in government for four years. So they said, “He’s saying something about what he’s going to do, create a million new jobs” – unemployment was at 13 per cent! – “and maybe he’ll succeed.” And the truth is, in those first four years – that was still the kick-in-the-head period – I made such changes……
László Pityinger Dopeman: Yes, I know. I’ll get to that.
…which weren’t comfortable for people.
László Pityinger Dopeman: But I’ll get to that, because that was back then too.
It wasn’t comfortable at all, because a lot of things had to be changed. And people are reluctant to accept that there’s a big problem and want the changes we make to generally be made by someone else, but not by them. When it becomes clear that they too will have to adjust and adapt, they tend to resist or reject the idea. So it was very difficult in 2010 – even though they called me back [to government] – to persuade people to work together to transform the structure of the economy into something that would have a future. But in the end, they accepted it – after some big battles. This is why today the Hungarian economy is being attacked from the outside, why there are financial sanctions in the EU, and why we’re under all kinds of attack. But this is a crisis-resistant structure which will withstand everything. If we can preserve this structure, the tax system, labour regulations and so on, it will withstand everything – and as soon as the war is over, it will surge forward with tremendous force. I’m certain of that. But I just want to tell you that in 2010 many people weighed up the options, had their doubts – just like you – and then made their decision. This has resulted in what I believe is the most crisis-resistant economy in Europe today.
László Pityinger Dopeman: But critical thinking is important. Regardless, you [Gyula] became a Fidesz voter.
Well, don’t give in to power. I don’t dare admit that here…
László Pityinger Dopeman: That’s a good line.
I don’t dare admit it, but I’ll say in secret that it’s one of my favourite songs, since we’re talking about music…
Gyula Mocsár: You can say it in private.
Yes, in private, because it never occurred to me that I’d ever say anything in support of [the Hungarian pop singer] Zsuzsa Koncz.
László Pityinger Dopeman: But she’ll be happy about it now.
My favourite song, for as long as I can remember, has been “A királyé nem leszek” [I Shall Not Be the King’s].
László Pityinger Dopeman: That’s a nice thought, by the way.
I shall not be the King’s. Yes, I think Illés wrote it first – that’s all I can say in my defence. But I think that’s the point: we never sell ourselves to power, even if we are the power, excuse me.
László Pityinger Dopeman: Yes. That was my story, by the way, during the first four years when all this was going on… I realised this afterwards, because I think our brains work similarly in many ways. During the first four years, it was necessary to strengthen the exercise of power. And then, with my rebellious mind, to me it seemed so strong, so violent.
It was.
László Pityinger Dopeman: And then these songs came out, like “Bazmeg”, and this whole rock-and-roll rebellion started. Well, obviously it affected me that the police made an issue out of every single song, and I had to go to interrogations all the time…
It’s not good for someone’s political opinion…
László Pityinger Dopeman: And besides, we have similar personalities. The Prime Minister has a Hulk-like personality, just like me. Are you familiar with the Hulk from Marvel?
No.
László Pityinger Dopeman: The point is, the more they hurt him, the angrier he gets, and he turns green and becomes more muscular. In the end, he beats all the superheroes.
There’s a saying in Fidesz, too, that we get tougher with every blow.
László Pityinger Dopeman: That’s why I’m saying this.
Some people soften with every blow, but we get tougher.
László Pityinger Dopeman: The monster just gets more and more orange. And the truth is that, in the end, after the statue head, my opportunities as a performer etc. narrowed. But I got into the economy.
But you can believe me, László, that I personally had nothing to do with it.
László Pityinger Dopeman: I believe you. I think there was all kinds of stuff in it, they did it to me on their own initiative…
Self-motivation.
László Pityinger Dopeman: On their own initiative, yes. And the point is that I started looking at bank statements, for example in loan administration, and I saw what was going on. And they called me to talk at opposition shows, and there I listened to the misery, to what was wrong. And we couldn’t sign off on it being true, and they hated us for it. And, for example, I have questions – a lot of questions – about Hungary, but I think there are systemic flaws that run through the political elite. These, all of our problems, stem primarily – and I’d put this in quotation marks – from Hungarian thinking.
László, before we move on, let’s not overlook the part of Hungarian reality where there really is poverty and there are problems.
László Pityinger Dopeman: Indeed! That’s right.
Because there is that. In every society there’s a certain percentage of people who are in a very difficult situation, often through no fault of their own, because they suffer from mental disorders or physical disabilities. And there are those who can’t support themselves. And there are those whose families can’t do so either. This is where the state comes in, and this is where I get my picture of these…
László Pityinger Dopeman: We’ve been affected by this, by the way.
Yes, I know about this, László, I know that you also have such family tragedies or difficulties. So these people are in a difficult situation. The state cannot withdraw from this, because the state has obligations there. And then there’s the next part of society, who, although they don’t suffer from incurable mental or physical ailments, have somehow found themselves in a situation where they’ll no longer be employed in the labour market. So even if they go to a state-owned or private company, they’ll be told that they’re not wanted because of the way they look and their past. So there are all kinds of problems.
László Pityinger Dopeman: Yes, for example, if I wanted to get a normal job, they’d definitely say they don’t want me…
We don’t know that.
László Pityinger Dopeman: …”You’ve been on the rock-and-roll stage too much.”
And the fact is that there are between about 70,000 and 75,000 people in Hungary who are in this situation. I know these figures. And of course they’re the ones we help with public work. Because it’s still better if they go out in the morning, do something, something useful, are part of a community, get paid instead of claiming welfare, and don’t end up just having welfare payments delivered by the postman. Many people disagree with my opinion, but I’m certain that those who are capable of doing something for themselves shouldn’t be put in a position where they don’t have to do anything and are simply sent aid. Instead, we should say, “My friend, you’re not a waste of space, you’re not a burden, you can contribute something, just gather your strength, pull yourself together, come here, be here in the morning, work with us. It will make sense, and at least you’ll get the money, unlike if you were waiting at home for welfare payments.” So there are about 70,000 people in this situation. And then there are the various groups on the minimum wage. But if I look at this from the bottom up – speaking from a financial point of view, not a moral one, from the bottom up – then I think that for many, many decades, maybe even centuries, Hungarian society hasn’t been so performance-based, forward-looking and future-oriented. So in our world there were no incentive systems that encouraged people to “do something with themselves”. Now there are. Now, these are deeper interpretations of the economy, not just political declarations, but I think they’re important.
László Pityinger Dopeman: Absolutely, I’ve observed this. I think this is the fundamental tragedy of the Left, in quotation marks. But it’s good for the Prime Minister that he’s pursuing what’s in many respects a “fusion” government. So when the sage Thich Nhat Hanh was asked how a person is, he said “left hand, right hand, left side, right side”: that’s how they function together. And when someone manages a structure, or manages an organisation, or manages a country, they have to make use of everything, of all kinds of tools. And I think that the opposition, for example, can’t find its place because the people they should be working with in the classical political sense, the proletariat – in quotation marks, they like to call them that, I don’t like to say it, but let’s call them that, basically the so-called proletariat – are supporters of Fidesz…
Well, of course!
…because they’re the winners in the Fidesz system. And this is a fantastic innovation. As a politician of the Right, you obviously have to strengthen the capitalists, that’s the method of the Right, and through that support the lower classes; and the method of the Left is for the state to reach down to them. And here we have a fusion operating.
I thought about this a lot when we were putting together the 2010 government programme, and I realised that the Left would come to an end because we, the Right, would implement a “left-wing” programme. Because what does the fundamental conflict in European politics traditionally look like? Parties of the Right are correctly said to represent freedom. But freedom also brings with it a lot of injustice, which is why the Left says that they represent justice: for example, justice for the people at the bottom, or those in worse situations, because they too have a right to justice. And our policy seeks to represent both freedom and justice at the same time – which is difficult because these vectors seem to be at odds with each other. But there is a point at which they resolve themselves. And that point is work. For example, I expect the rich to give jobs to other people.
László Pityinger Dopeman: Yes.
I ask other people not to ask for welfare, but to go to work if they can. For example, I have a lot of support in the Roma community, because there are a lot of Roma families who can support themselves through work, which they couldn’t do before 2010. They were kicked around, looked down on, called freeloaders. And then it turned out that when given the opportunity, most of them aren’t like that. They come to work. There are a lot of them. In Hungary there’s a Roma middle class. As long as the construction industry is doing well, and a few other professions are doing well, there’s work. So I think the Left–Right divide can be resolved from the perspective of work, and that’s the axis around which my politics revolves. One million jobs have been created.
László Pityinger Dopeman: So that there can be action, activity.
Yes: action, performance, life, activity.
László Pityinger Dopeman: That’s what I always say, that the Word that was with God wasn’t a subject, but a verb, an action. So the world works as long as we act. That’s fundamental. Anyway, we’ve started to experience this.
The other thing that makes the Roma support me is the family. So family is important, and it’s important to them. We’re talking about a traditional community where, in an archaic way, family is by far the most important thing: nothing can be more important than that. And after work, the other axis on which this dichotomy between freedom and justice is resolved – and the Right and Left disappear, and a national-based politics is created – is work and family.
László Pityinger Dopeman: Are you tired of being asked about Állampuszta and corruption? How many times were you asked about it in the last podcast?
Hatvanpuszta.
Gyula Mocsár: That’s how much we care.
László Pityinger Dopeman: Hatvanpuszta! I don’t care.
They do ask, yes.
László Pityinger Dopeman: I know, all the time. I’m being honest, I’m not interested in corruption…
I have to say, I’m not bored, so how can I put it…
László Pityinger Dopeman:…I’ll tell you.
I’d rather say that it’s a sad thing. The whole thing is nonsense. I just saw a video or something…
László Dopeman Pityinger: Did they find an antelope or something there?
Gyula Mocsár: Let me ask you, was the antelope a deliberate joke?
No, not the antelope, it was the zebra. Because first they made up…
László Pityinger Dopeman: When you said, “I sent [the media celebrity] Győzike!”
They made up a story that I keep zebras. First of all, right…
László Pityinger Dopeman: But why?
Let’s talk about Hatvanpuszta – because I have a house, but in Felcsút, not Hatvanpuszta.
László Pityinger Dopeman: Yes.
I’ll show it to you sometime. It’s cool, really fun.
László Pityinger Dopeman: It’s next to the stadium.
Yes, my wife never misses the opportunity…
László Pityinger Dopeman: I filmed there once.
…to rub my nose in the fact that from the kitchen window there used to be a beautiful view of the willow trees by the stream, but now all you can see from the window is a concrete grandstand. But let’s leave that…
Gyula Mocsár: But can you really see the concrete grandstand?
It’s opposite, that’s right.
Gyula Mocsár: So when accusations like this come up, and there’s a picture like this, is it from the Prime Minister’s window, from the kitchen, or where?
From the kitchen, yes.
Gyula Mocsár: You sit in the kitchen in the morning, or when there are matches, and that’s where you have lunch.
Well, anyway, yes, but the old one was there, and there was nothing we could do about that – because I grew up there, on that pitch. We’re not here to talk about this, this isn’t a Nemzeti Sport podcast, but the essence of the matter is the spirit of the game, and you can’t move pitches around. The spirit of the game is tied to a place – the spirit is where the pitch is. You can’t move football pitches around. Of course, sometimes you have to build new ones, but the point is, if you have the old one, then…
László Pityinger Dopeman: Then it should be there.
At the Puskás Aréna everything is the way it is because Uncle Öcsi [Ferenc Puskás] would kick off right where the centre circle is today. I wouldn’t allow that to change, because it’s the soul of the matter. Now in Felcsút, too, there was the football pitch on which I grew up. Even though my house was the closest, I couldn’t move the pitch, because I’d have killed its hundred-year-old soul. So you can’t do that. So I said I’d work it out with my wife somehow. I’m not sure if I made the right decision, because it’s still an unresolved issue between us. But that’s how it is now. So I have a house there. My father has a farm in Hatvanpuszta.
László Dopeman Pityinger: Yes, I know.
That’s what I’m talking about. And then they decided that it wasn’t me who kept zebras there, but my father.
László Dopeman Pityinger: But why?
And then I said…
Gyula Mocsár: A painted horse?
…I told Győzike.
László Dopeman Pityinger: He’s an expert on zebras anyway.
I told Győzike, who’s always around Fidesz anyway. Anyway, he’s one of us, or how should I put it, a man of such disposition – I don’t know, it’s difficult. How do these relationships come about? Someone will surely write about it someday. Because when we talk about Győzike, we’re talking about a showman who is, how should I put it, not highly regarded. Right?
László Pityinger Dopeman: Not highly regarded, but well paid.
Well paid – and, sorry, talented.
Gyula Mocsár: And in 2004, the most watched show was The Győzike Show.
And, let’s say, the majority of our voter community didn’t grow up watching his shows, but somehow he’s still linked to us. Now, that doesn’t matter, we’ll discuss that in another show, that’s just the way it is. I’m not ashamed of anyone who’s with me, by the way…
László Dopeman Pityinger: Of course not!
So, if I can talk to someone directly and honestly, I can say everything I like and everything I don’t like, then there’s a reason for us to have a relationship. Well, never mind. And when they came up with this zebra, I told Győzike, “Győzike, you’re the zebra expert in this country, in that great jacket of yours, now’s your chance, help me out.” And then Győzike went to the zoo and said that the zebras are there, not in Hatvanpuszta. So, okay, but seriously, there’s a problem with our profession – because meanwhile the world’s facing huge changes…
László Pityinger Dopeman: That’s for sure.
…we can all feel it directly.
László Pityinger Dopeman: Of course! Absolutely!
This can also be described in the press as, say, an American–European tariff war. When was the last time we saw such a term? Or a transatlantic divide, with the Americans not supporting the war and Europe supporting it. Or we can describe this artificial intelligence in terms of how it will affect our lives, our work, and our jobs.
László Pityinger Dopeman: Almost like the movie The Terminator.
These are enormous changes that lie ahead of us. We’ll have to work hard to preserve jobs, and so on: Hungarians are facing very serious questions that need to be answered, and which can’t be answered without the state and politicians. You may not like politicians, but someone has to make decisions about change and implement them in such a way that people are better off and not worse off – and that’s why politicians are needed. So while we should be debating with one another in this dimension, political life is full of all kinds of nonsense – such as non-existent zebras. So one of my fellow Members of Parliament – I think it’s Hadházy – is organised a safari trip.
László Dopeman Pityinger: Well, they climb up with ladders and peep in from there.
And this is happening while the real issues are right here in front of us. Well, this is also part of politics, and it needs to be resolved.
László Pityinger Dopeman: I’ll just say why I’m not so concerned about the issue of corruption. There are two kinds of kings – in quotation marks – that a person can be if they have some kind of ambition to be one: they can be a spiritual king, who proclaims some kind of religion or philosophy, or a secular king. For example, when the Buddha was born, they said he’d become a king. But this also came up in connection with Jesus. Both became spiritual kings, so they spread religion, and therefore they took an absolutely straightforward approach. But a secular king, which in quotation marks could be a prime minister or any kind of leader, has to work with the entire spectrum of people. This sounds silly now, but if you’re a secular leader, you have to cooperate with everyone in some way, from the wise man to the murderer – because soldiers also kill in certain circumstances.
The world has to be put in some kind of order.
László Pityinger Dopeman: With everyone. But what within Fidesz, for example, do you think requires real self-reflection? So what actually…
We’re looking from the perspective of corruption, so I don’t think we should turn a blind eye to it. Corruption is something that must be eradicated – it’s unacceptable.
László Pityinger Dopeman: Absolutely!
There’s this Hungarian attitude that I don’t like, which is reflected in a Székely joke, which people often say is analogous or a parallel to corruption: an old Székely man is asked if fish drink water. The old Székely says that he doesn’t know if they do, but they certainly have the opportunity to do so. So corruption is like that too: people don’t know if someone is corrupt, but if they’re in politics they could be, because the opportunity is right there in front of them. And from there it’s only a step away from believing it, isn’t it? But I don’t see this as a problem, because we’re dealing with it. So in reality – contrary to all the nonsense that’s being said – the level of corruption in Hungary is unfortunately not zero, where it should be, but it doesn’t stand out above the European average.
László Pityinger Dopeman: It can’t be compared to Italy.
It doesn’t stand out above the European average. Everyone can calmly acknowledge that – but it doesn’t mean that it’s good, because no case of corruption is good. However, my answer to your question, László, isn’t on that, but rather on where self-reflection is needed. I’d like to say something else. I’m not saying that this is characteristic of our community as a whole, but there are such cases, and one bad ingredient can spoil a meal, can’t it?
László Pityinger Dopeman: It’s easier to destroy than to build.
In around 1992, when “Uncle Pista” Csurka [István Csurka] wrote his essay entitled “Fathers and Sons”, which led to the divergence between the moderates and radicals on the Right, he said to József Antall… Dear Gyula, you’re looking at me as if I were…
Gyula Mocsár: I’m listening.
…as if you were listening to stories about World War II. Yes, you probably weren’t even alive then.
Gyula Mocsár: That’s how my eyes are.
Yes. And then there was a big debate between the Prime Minister, József Antall, and the most popular member of his party, István Csurka. And István Csurka wrote a study about how the liberals of the time – the members of the SZDSZ – basically came from communist families, and that this could be traced back through generations…
Gyula Mocsár: Communist families?
Yes, from communist families, and this goes back a long way. And the whole thing became linked with anti-Semitism, I think – or at least it could be interpreted that way, as his opponents interpreted it that way. And then in a private conversation József Antall said to him: “Pista, you cooked a fantastic goulash soup, and at the end you threw in a piece of…”
László Pityinger Dopeman: Shit.
Yes. And the whole thing was ruined.
László Pityinger Dopeman: I’ll swear for the Prime Minister. I could find myself a great job. When the Prime Minister wants to swear, I’ll suddenly appear and say it instead of him.
It would be a tough, difficult job.
László Pityinger Dopeman: That’s why I’m saying it.
Well, back to the point. So I’m not saying that this is typical of us, but even one case can spoil the mood. I’d rather call it showing off. Showing off is a terrible thing, a bad thing, a harmful thing. Because I think most people don’t have a problem with someone having money and someone else having less, because we live in a market economy.
László Pityinger Dopeman: It’s a competitive society.
Yes, and there are rich people on the Left too – no one thinks that they’re only on the Right. I can list them by the dozen.
László Pityinger Dopeman: When it comes to oligarchic issues, I always ask, how can the rest of them be richer?
That’s right! But that’s not the essence of the problem. Because if the rich follow the three rules of respecting the law, paying taxes, and giving people jobs, then we can pretty much come to terms with the fact that there’s such material inequality in the world. What Hungarians can’t stand – and rightly so – is the ostentatiousness of rubbing in their faces the fact that I have…
Gyula Mocsár: This is the fourth one, isn’t it?
Yes. They can’t stand that I have something. And they’re right, it’s completely contrary to Hungarian customs and instincts. So they try to put me in the position of owning a mansion and other such nonsense, and they want people to hate me. But, you know, I don’t have a mansion, and I don’t live like that. On the other hand, I can’t say that everyone on the Right understands this, and sometimes there is ostentation. That’s a problem!
László Pityinger Dopeman: That’s a problem.
That’s a problem.
László Pityinger Dopeman: Yes.
That’s where self-reflection is needed.
László Pityinger Dopeman: So what we have here is that this part of the elite needs to look at itself.
One has to behave. One doesn’t have to behave in general, but in the community to which one belongs. Now, Hungarians – probably because of our Asian origins – have certain expectations of their leaders, for example. So Hungarians expect their leaders to be the best. But we can never allow a situation where the best among us become detached from us.
László Pityinger Dopeman: Yes.
So they expect you to be the best, and at the same time to be like them.
László Pityinger Dopeman: Yes.
That’s not an impossible expectation.
László Pityinger Dopeman: Actually, it’s like a parent–child relationship, isn’t it?
It’s difficult to translate this accurately, but that’s how it is in Hungary. It’s not like that in every country.
László Pityinger Dopeman: No.
It’s not like that in America, nor in Germany. But if you’re a leader here in Hungary, then you have to accept it. That’s how it is here. That’s how our people are. That’s what they expect. You can’t just ignore it and say you don’t care. Yes, that’s how it is. So showing off, which, as I said, is a virtue in America and some European countries…
László Pityinger Dopeman: Absolutely – and how.
In Hungary, it’s a mistake. It’s not possible. You have to accept that.
László Pityinger Dopeman: Yes, exaggerated achievement is a virtue in America.
They think that if you’ve got something – how do they put it? – “How many digits are you?” When two Americans meet, they ask how many digits you are as a person.
László Pityinger Dopeman: Yes. What a human world!
Which means how many digits your wealth is expressed in.
László Pityinger Dopeman: And that’s what you depend on.
Six, seven – I don’t know how many digits. Millionaire, billionaire, and so on.
László Pityinger Dopeman: Yes.
But our world isn’t like that. It’s a different, slightly more tribal, more Eastern world, which at the same time demands freedom in a terrifying way…
László Pityinger Dopeman: That’s right.
…Hungarians are incredibly freedom-loving, individualistic: “My house is my castle”. But at the same time they expect everyone to abide by certain rules.
László Pityinger Dopeman: Yes.
For example, “Don’t rub it in my face in the fact that you’re ridiculously rich when you can see that I’m not so rich. Don’t do that!”
László Pityinger Dopeman: Yes.
These are expectations that you have to accept if you’re involved in public life.
László Pityinger Dopeman: We looked at these statistics back at college, and I think that’s why there’s all this rebellion and discontent now. They compared several countries to see how individualistic they are. And, for example, even the Germans and similar Saxon peoples pay close attention to the fact that elections are very transparent, they pay attention to all the details, and whatever the Government says, that’s what happens. That’s what they do. Hungarians are macho. So they don’t really care about corruption, only because they’re not personally affected. And anyway, the elections are much more transparent than Hungarians would expect, you know, but the point is that you can’t interfere with when a Hungarian goes to bed, who his wife is, where he goes. These are individualistic things.
If you knew how carefully I have to think about what I say…
László Pityinger Dopeman: I know.
…in relation to family support as well. In family support, I can offer assistance to those who have children. But if I don’t say this right, Hungarians will think that I want to tell them how many children they should have, and they’ll close their ears, clench their fists, pull out their knives, and send me packing. So even when you do good in Hungary…
László Pityinger Dopeman: It’s difficult.
…you still have to be very careful with what you say, so that they don’t feel like you’re intruding on their personal space. That’s how it is. You could say that it would be better if it weren’t like that.
László Pityinger Dopeman: But that’s how it is.
We have to accept our own kind for what it is. That’s how it is.
László Pityinger Dopeman: That’s right.
This is the environment we live in, this is the world we love, and if you want to do something here, say, as a leader, then you have to accept that this is how it is. This is why I’m careful when I talk about this, so that single women or single people who don’t want children don’t feel that I’m speaking against them or that they’re not important to the country.
László Pityinger Dopeman: Of course.
This is a very difficult task.
Gyula Mocsár: So if I understand correctly, Prime Minister, there will be no dictatorship in Hungary, and Hungary won’t be…
László Pityinger Dopeman: How could it be?
Gyula Mocsár:…renamed Belarus. This is the constant, widely discussed…
László Pityinger Dopeman: That’s what they’re afraid of.
Gyula Mocsár:…and they fear this, and they demand it almost as if it were a desire.
But this is a Budapest issue.
Gyula Mocsár: But it’s terribly interesting that they almost expect the opposite reaction, so that they can rebel against it.
This is a central Budapest issue. It’s not my job to open people’s eyes to what’s going on abroad. But, let’s say, if you’re in Germany and on Facebook or at work, and you speak out against gender…
László Pityinger Dopeman: I know.
…and you say that you’re a supporter of the traditional family model, or you say that you’re strongly opposed to migration, you’ll lose your job. They’ll give you a chance to change your opinion, and if you don’t, you’ll lose your job.
László Pityinger Dopeman: That’s also how it is in California, yes.
I just want to say that, compared to what’s happening to the west of us on these taboo issues, Hungary is an island of freedom. So if freedom needs to be protected anywhere, it’s not in Hungary, but in the liberal world to the west of us. Liberalism or liberals used to mean freedom. Today it means restriction and oppression.
László Pityinger Dopeman: Exactly.
Today we who aren’t liberals are rebelling, we’re on the side of freedom, and we’re rebelling against this – while the liberals are exercising control and practising oppression.
László Dopeman: That’s why, when people ask me why I support the Prime Minister, I say it’s because he’s rock and roll. So in fact at the level of ideas he’s in the opposition. I laugh at the kind of communication that goes on online. People write to me saying that after 2026 I should be careful. I post a photo of myself out running, and they say I should practice running, because I’ll have to run. But from whom? And why? If they want democracy.
And who says that?
László Pityinger Dopeman: Well, these commenters.
Okay, but that means they’re the dictatorship.
László Dopeman Pityinger: That’s what I’m saying.
Those who say that you have to run and escape are the dictatorship, while they want to accuse us of such things.
László Pityinger Dopeman: That’s what I’m saying.
So anyone preparing for that is the personification of dictatorship. But I wouldn’t take it seriously…
László Pityinger Dopeman: No…
…because Hungarians have big mouths.
László Pityinger Dopeman: Big.
And sometimes… You know, I come from the Calvinist tradition, where we tend to say strong things – but when it comes to action, common sense prevails.
László Pityinger Dopeman: It’s important.
I think so. I think that, of course, Hungary is a world of coffee houses, there’s a lot of noise, but when it comes to taking action, I think there’s moderation. For example, we don’t usually kill each other. Civil war isn’t a Hungarian invention. Because even if we say all sorts of things to each other about killing each other or locking each other up…
László Pityinger Dopeman: That’s more difficult.
…that doesn’t happen in Hungary.
Gyula Mocsár: At most in the form of uprisings.
And, what’s more, against outsiders.
Gyula Mocsár: Yes.
László Pityinger Dopeman: Our way of thinking is also very special, very refined, our language is sacred, and it allows us to approach reality quite closely.
The MCC Feszt was held recently in Esztergom, and Peter Thiel was there. I don’t know how well known his name is – he’s a tech guru, let’s put it that way. So he’s one of the top three in the world in artificial intelligence and technology development. He has a large Californian financial fund. So Peter Thiel is a guy of German ancestry, by the way. I met him a few years ago, and now we were able to sit down and talk at length. There were also a couple of Anglo-Saxon philosophers and other interesting figures there. It was a good conversation, an interesting evening, and I learned a lot. We tried to explain where they were in Esztergom, and so on, and we had to say something about the Hungarian language. And when, for example, they wanted to toast, they asked us how to say “Cheers” in Hungarian. We told them, “egészségére”. But what does that mean? And then we tried to translate it, because in Hungarian, “egészségére” doesn’t mean “may you be healthy” – it’s not the same as “health” in English.
László Pityinger Dopeman: No.
It means “the whole.”
László Pityinger Dopeman: The whole, what’s complete.
Gyula Mocsár: Wholeness.
Perhaps I’d translate it as “wholeness”.
László Pityinger Dopeman: That’s what makes the world beautiful.
Wholeness, perhaps. And I said that’s what it means. And then it turned out that there are so few words like that in their language. And then we started talking about it. Well, you know, when I talk about “wife”, in English, I don’t know if that has a meaning, but in Hungarian it means my half: my other half.
László Dopeman Pityinger: Yes, indeed.
Or brother is “testvér”. So “test” and “vér” is “flesh” and “blood”. And the Hungarian language is full of expressions like that. We don’t even realise how rich our imagery is…
László Dopeman Pityinger: Beautiful.
…and it stimulates the brain in a way we don’t even notice. Thinking in images requires constant identification and recognition. The brain is constantly active, Hungarians’ brains are constantly active because of speech, and we’re good at professions that require fresh brain activity.
László Pityinger Dopeman: That’s why the EU can’t stand us.
Well, yes, that’s why. It’s certain that mine moves faster than theirs. We can be sure of that.
László Pityinger Dopeman: Yes, and speaking of “egészségére”, I can complicate it even further: because, “Madam, egészségére, I drink to your ‘egész segg’ [‘whole ass’]!” That’s also in it.
That’s the 8th District version.
László Dopeman Pityinger: Yes, the 8th District version. I know you don’t want to debate with Péter Magyar, but some time I’d really like to.
Don’t agitate, László, about something like that!
László Dopeman Pityinger: I’ll tell you why, because as an outside observer, I see this as a teenage rebellion in many ways, and it would be very exciting.
Yes, it would be exciting, and it wouldn’t be bad as a stage production either.
László Pityinger Dopeman: No.
Gyula Mocsár: In Felcsút, in the middle of the pitch.
But that’s not the problem. There are two issues here that make this impossible. The first is that we’re talking about a hireling.
László Pityinger Dopeman: Okay, that’s not the issue anyway.
A hireling. In the first place I don’t argue with hirelings. That’s the first thing. But if I do have something to argue about with that world, then I argue with the paymasters: Ursula von der Leyen and Mr. Weber, not their Hungarian puppet. If we don’t want Hungarian politics to become frivolous, then we must never argue with puppets, because in the end we’ll render them serious. The second thing is that there’s also a situational difficulty. What am I supposed to make of the fact that this man, a year and a half ago…
László Pityinger Dopeman: He was applauding you.
…sat in the front row during every single speech I gave, and even insisted on sitting there, applauding…
László Pityinger Dopeman: He was dancing…
… cheering.
László Pityinger Dopeman: And was happy…
And probably not for me, because – how can I put it? – I probably don’t reach the aesthetic level to elicit such experiences on my own. It was probably what I said that caused that. But I still represent what I did then. Now he constantly disparages what he previously applauded, cheered and welcomed. So in a situation like this there’s nothing I can do. Quite simply, that’s not a debate: it’s just an argument and a squabble, and nothing good will come of it. So let’s just stick to not debating with people who are paid to do their job – although of course we need to debate with their bosses, and I do debate with them every month.
László Pityinger Dopeman: I’ll debate with him. I’m happy to offer that.
That won’t end well either.
Gyula Mocsár: We can offer him a seat next to the Prime Minister.
Yes. After I’ve left.
László Pityinger Dopeman: After you’ve left. He can see how it feels.
Gyula Mocsár: Yes, elsewhere in time.
László Pityinger Dopeman: Anyway, what’s going to happen in the war? Is there anything related to that, any information? You obviously know much more than…
No, I think there’s a problem there. I only have bad news. Right now, I only have bad news – that’s the truth. The only reason for optimism is that the Americans can already see clearly that this could spell big trouble. This could be a big problem. The Americans are usually less associated with common sense, with Democratic or liberal governments much more characterised by world-changing intervention and lecturing. But this isn’t the case in America now. Common sense is in government, and they’re saying that this could be a problem, so let’s stop it as soon as possible. This is the only thing that gives cause for optimism. The Europeans? What a tragedy! A year ago, I visited both Zelenskyy and Putin.
László Pityinger Dopeman: What kind of guy is Zelenskyy, by the way?
I’ll tell you what I can in a moment. Then I visited the Chinese leader, President Xi, and the future American president. I did the rounds.
László Pityinger Dopeman: I know, we followed it.
Because we assumed the rotating presidency of the European Union – and what could be more important for Europe than peace. I immediately did all this in the first two weeks. Now, the Ukrainian. I’m not saying he sent me to hell, because he was more polite than that, but basically it was like talking to a brick wall. I explained to him that he had to understand that time was on the Russians’ side.
László Dopeman: Absolutely!
We’re sitting here now, and a year ago I said the following: “If we’re still sitting here a year from now”, and I’m not sitting there now, “then the situation for you, Volodimir, will be much worse than it is now. And if you know that something will be worse than it is for you now, then let them – the European Union – or me help you. Make use of the help of others, because – like a car wheel when it gets stuck – you’ll dig yourself and your whole country deeper in trouble. So I think peace, or at least a ceasefire, would be in your interest.” But he rejected the whole thing. The Russians were simpler. “I understand, Prime Minister”, said the Russian president, “but we’re winning!”
László Pityinger Dopeman: Yes, at times like that it’s hard to stop.
I had an argument for that too, but I didn’t get through to him: I said that the war may be won, but the peace must also be won.
László Pityinger Dopeman: Indeed, it must be maintained.
The post-war period must also be won, and those who are winning can also think about how to win the peace. I had a long – almost philosophical – conversation with the Russian president about this. But events clearly didn’t turn towards peace – although later on he wouldn’t have ruled out a Christmas ceasefire. But that’s not the biggest problem. Because if the West weren’t supporting the Ukrainians with money and weapons, then Ukraine would have to make peace anyway, and it would happen very soon. The problem is that Europeans want war. Many European leaders believe – and say so in discussions – that, through the current war, it will be good for the world and good for Europe to deal a crushing blow to the Russians on Ukrainian territory. And they say that Russia must be defeated. They use this word: Russia must be defeated. Some go even further – Biden, for example, went further. He said that Putin must be overthrown. So half of Europeans say peace. This is what’s said by Fico, myself, and the Vatican.
László Pityinger Dopeman: Yes.
That’s pretty much where we are now.
László Pityinger Dopeman: That would be the healthy position.
Yes. Some say, “No, it’s war, let’s defeat the Russians on Ukrainian territory.” There’s a third group that says “Yes, and let’s use this victory, which is Russia’s defeat, to bring about regime change in Moscow.” Well, that’s just a fantasy. By the way, if anyone knows Moscow…
László Pityinger Dopeman: Absolutely!
…and knows who’s there and what change there could mean, then I can say that the only alternative to the current power structure or the current leaders that I know of today would be worse for Europe than the current one. So today the problem is that the EU doesn’t want peace, with the exception of Hungary and Slovakia, those who are most directly affected physically and geographically speaking – and the Serbs could perhaps be included here, but they’re not an EU Member State. That’s the truth. This is why the situation is difficult.
László Pityinger Dopeman: It may just be my interpretation and my filter, but I had this idea that the longer this war lasts, the more Ukraine will be torn apart. In this scenario it will obviously be the loser. And this is also a business opportunity for many, in terms of rebuilding. When Trump came to power the leadership of the European Union were pushed out; but under Biden, as long as they did their job, as long as they followed his lead, they had a place at the table. And isn’t it possible that through the war, they’re trying to get back to the table, to participate in this opportunity to rebuild Ukraine?
I think, László, that as in any such military conflict, there are several different groups that have an interest in the war for different reasons. But we mustn’t think that they’re all one group with the same interests behind them. It’s more nuanced and fragmented than that. There’s a group that are mindful of the fact that they – and this is a fact – already have huge investments and assets in Ukraine…
László Pityinger Dopeman: Indeed.
…and they want to keep it that way – and they even want to make it profitable. I saw several articles about this in [the Hungarian weekly] Mandiner, both online and offline, where they listed who the biggest owners are right now. There are Americans and Arabs, and there are French and German companies that are, pardon the expression, up to their elbows in…
László Pityinger Dopeman: In agriculture, in everything.
…the Ukrainian economy. So there is such a group. Then there’s another group, the leaders of the Union who sit in Brussels, the Brussels bureaucrats.
László Pityinger Dopeman: The SMS gang.
Yes. They think that every crisis is an opportunity to achieve federal changes that curtail the powers of the Member States and strengthen and centralise the power of the centre. It’s interesting to note that whatever crisis there’s been over the past fifteen years, whether the financial crisis, the migration crisis, then the COVID crisis and now the war, it’s all led to Brussels taking powers away from the Member States. So the master plan in Brussels is to create a United States of Europe; they have such a plan in mind.
László Pityinger Dopeman: Yes, I know, empire building.
War is a useful tool in this regard, and I can see that, because they’re trying to take more and more powers away from us. Now it’s the management of energy supplies, where we can buy gas and oil from, where we can’t buy it from; then it’s arms manufacturing, the arms industry; and lending, which is linked to this. It all comes from the centre. So there’s also a power group that uses war for centralisation. So it’s not a single entity, but several very powerful groups that have vested interests in continuing the war. What follows from this? We need to find more and more groups that have an interest in ending the war. I think the Americans are one such group. That’s why we need to develop the closest possible cooperation with the Americans. This hasn’t always been the case, nor will it always be the case, but it is the case now.
László Pityinger Dopeman: The problem is that we have hardly any time left, even though we could talk for hours. But based on the Prime Minister’s vision, or rather my idea or view of it, based on how he acts and behaves, I’m curious to see how synchronised it is. So I see the Prime Minister as a representative of a historical thread that runs through Hungarian history. There are precisely two threads. There are those who think in a sovereign way, wanting to have a greater say in the country’s destiny, to take advantage of its opportunities; obviously they want to work together with the Holy Roman Empire of the day, but they want greater freedom for themselves and want to better define their positions and strategies. And then there’s the so-called “Western” way of thinking, which says that we should completely adopt that way of functioning and give up our own story. And here what I see is that our language and way of thinking are being protected. And I also see that although it’s not possible to bring back the territory of the old Hungary in the near future, then this sphere of influence could be a competitor to the Western sphere of influence. Here, for example, is Paks II, when it’s built; or the Budapest–Belgrade railway line, which is an extension of the Silk Road; or when Paks II comes on line, then we’ll actually be supplying the whole of Europe with electricity. So, if we go into it more deeply, this is what the whole difference with Brussels is about: they don’t like the fact that we want to develop our own sphere of influence within this competitive situation. So this isn’t a warlike rivalry or anything like that, but just the desire to have an impact on our destiny.
I’m a country boy, so I have a lot of observations from my childhood that…
László Pityinger Dopeman: Eternal student, he said, I liked that.
…came over into politics. And when I was a child I observed how things work with large trees. When there are many large trees, they always cast shadows, but there’s always some space left where a shrub, a smaller plant – or even a flower – can grow. But if there’s one tree and it casts a shadow over you, nothing will grow there. So what I’m saying is that if many great powers have an interest in Hungary’s success and I can involve many of them, then Hungary will have more room for manoeuvre among the many large trees and will serve its own interests better than if we were to retreat into the shadow of a single large tree. This is my childhood observation, and I think it’s true in politics.
László Pityinger Dopeman: Life is politics, and politics is life.
That’s why I think it’s good that the Silk Road ends here in Hungary…
László Pityinger Dopeman: Of course!
…and with Budapest–Belgrade, it fits in here. It’s good that the Chinese are here and helping with the very difficult technology of electromobility and solar energy storage, in which they’re the best in the world. Generally, Hungarians need the best of everything – whether it’s from America, China or Russia.
László Pityinger Dopeman: Of course.
Why should we bring in second- or third-rate stuff when we can get the best? So I think that we should follow the Hungarian tradition of not wanting to sign up as someone’s servant or spear carrier, but rather look for opportunities to best promote Hungarian interests by expanding our room for manoeuvre.
László Pityinger Dopeman: As an equal partner.
Well, I always have a problem with those who only look to the West. I like that trend, by the way, and there are a lot of serious minds among them.
László Pityinger Dopeman: Absolutely!
But my problem with their modern representatives – especially among the older generation – is that I see that they used to be communists. So they were the ones who used to say that Moscow was good. Now they say it’s good to be Western. So I don’t trust those guys. So they don’t care whether it’s East or West, but turn out to be looking for a host body to which they can attach themselves or under which they can try to build their own positions of power in Hungary. What follows from this? What happened to Péter Magyar and Tisza: sooner or later, they’ll be bought by the kilo.
László Pityinger Dopeman: Of course.
If you base your politics on them, they’ll buy you by the kilo. They’ll help you, but you’ll have to pay for it. And how do you pay? You pay with decisions in Hungary that don’t serve the interests of Hungarians, but those of your clients. This is why one should never vote for paid puppets, because Hungarians may not see this complex relationship, but entrusting the fate of the country to hirelings means that Hungarians will suffer. And in the current situation this is the crucial question: Are Hungarians at the helm of the country, or are Brussels officials at the helm of the country? Of course they’ll dangle a carrot of EU money in front of your nose, this way and that way.
László Pityinger Dopeman: Oh yes, what about EU money?
Yes, there’s the carrot, but if Hungarians fall for this trick, in the end they’ll take the carrot away from us too. We may be able to nibble the carrot, but as sure as I’m sitting here, the Westerners will take the carrot away. They’ll rob us of everything we have.
László Pityinger Dopeman: I see the world in terms of East–West relations, so if I go far enough East, I’ll reach the West. If I go far enough to the West, I’ll reach the East. So the world is a whole. If someone only observes part of it, or only directs their gaze in a certain direction, and only sees that, they’ll miss opportunities.
And, László, what you’re saying now is the most serious philosophical question facing the world.
László Pityinger Dopeman: Yes.
Let’s leave the world for now and step outside Hungary for a moment.
László Pityinger Dopeman: Of course.
How will the world organise itself? As two halves or as a whole?
László Pityinger Dopeman: Yes. We mustn’t break it all up.
Will it be divided into two blocs again, or will we work together as a whole?
László Pityinger Dopeman: Which is one organ, one organisation.
I think it’s always in our interest to imagine the world as a whole, and to be able to move within the whole, to seek opportunities within the whole.
László Pityinger Dopeman: To your health!
Yes. Cheers! And they won’t squeeze us into any particular bloc. But this is the most powerful philosophical question for the world as well: how will there be greater peace, prosperity, and happiness in the world? If we view it as a single entity and allow world politics to be organised in this way, or if it’s divided into blocs?
László Pityinger Dopeman: That would certainly be worse. Unfortunately, we’ve reached the end.
EU funding next time.
László Pityinger Dopeman: Okay, but there’s one thing I’d really like, Prime Minister. [To Gyula] Take it out, please. I had a brand. I sold so many T-shirts with it that it was sensational, but I have a few left, and I’d like the Prime Minister to sign them so I can auction them off. You’re on it, as “Don Veto” and “Dad”.
Have you sold things like this?
László Pityinger Dopeman: A lot. And if you sign it, I’ll auction it off, and whatever money comes in will go to a foundation that helps children with multiple disabilities, the Gondoskodás Gyermekeinkért Alapítvány [Care for Our Children Foundation] and the Gyermekétkeztetési Alapítvány [Children’s Food Foundation], and I’ll send them whatever money comes in.
Gyula, please help me by pulling on the edge there. Here, on my chest.
László Pityinger Dopeman: Good.
Shoot here!
László Pityinger Dopeman: That’s what Majka says these days, poor thing.
Oh really, sorry – that’s another show.
Gyula Mocsár: And in gold, beautiful.
And are people willing to pay money for something like this?
László Pityinger Dopeman: Absolutely, they love it.
I mean, if it serves a good purpose, why not?
László Pityinger Dopeman: When I came up with Don Veto, they loved it. It [the veto] is a powerful weapon.
Of course! It’s no wonder that they want to wrest it from my hands.
László Dopeman Pityinger: Sure, I know. That’s the basis of empire building, taking away opportunities.
Don Veto.
László Pityinger Dopeman: Awesome! So it’s going to a good cause, and then in this matter…
I’ve given something, and I’ve got a book. Thank you very much for having me here.
Mocsár Gyula: Thank you very much!
László Pityinger Dopeman: And I’ll give you another mug. You’re on this one too.
Okay.
Gyula Mocsár: This is how you should watch the game from the kitchen, with this mug.
My face doesn’t look very friendly in this image.
László Pityinger Dopeman: Well, it’s mischievous. But it’s good.
Gyula Mocsár: They’ve just taken away the EU money.
Yes, or we’ve conceded a goal.
Gyula Mocsár: Or that’s the other possibility.
László Pityinger Dopeman: Yes. I’ll do a smiling one too. Thank you very much!
Thank you for the invitation.
László Pityinger Dopeman: I hope we can do it again. We also have a show with Sanyi Bárdosi.
No!
László Pityinger Dopeman: The Barbár Shop is just starting up, and it will run throughout the autumn. So if we can have you as a guest there, then…
I’m a big fan of Bárdos, because there were wrestlers in his family.
László Pityinger Dopeman: Yes, his brother.
Yes. And I know what a gruelling job that is.
László Pityinger Dopeman: Okay, well, if we can arrange it sometime, I’ll bring it up.
Thank you very much.
Gyula Mocsár: Taking advantage of this opportunity, may I ask one last question? Today is my second anniversary with my girlfriend, and I’ll probably be editing the video at home. So, if you could possibly send her a greeting, some kind of exclusive…
László Pityinger Dopeman: Don’t tear him up like an eagle tearing up a sparrow.
Gyula Mocsár: Her name is Sára Butora.
Without knowing you, dear Sára, I can say that Gyula is sitting here next to me, and his absence tonight is excused, I am the reason, I apologise!
Gyula Mocsár: Thank you very much!
László Pityinger Dopeman: Thank you very much! It was an experience. Awesome
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