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Szabolcs Rostás: The regrettable event prompting your visit to Transylvania is the funeral of Előd Kincses, the lawyer, civil and human rights activist from Marosvásárhely/Târgu Mures. The Hungarian community in Romania has suffered a great loss, as one of its leading public figures has passed away. Prime Minister, how do you remember Előd Kincses?
Respect brought us here. We’re talking about a very old comrade-in-arms. Comrades-in-arms cannot be separated by state borders, wherever they’re drawn. We in Budapest have always regarded Előd Kincses as one of us, and we remember him as a brave man. We can say that he was an excellent lawyer, and we can recall many of his good qualities, but, in nations in such a situation as Hungary, what’s most important is courage. There are types of people who aren’t in the limelight, but when there’s trouble you know you can always count on them – and that’s who Előd was. He was a brave man who never flinched: when the Hungarian people’s interests demanded it, he’d take on work and tasks that resulted in him being banished, pushed out, forced out of his own country and into Hungary – and even further, to Vienna. So he bore the consequences, never considering his own personal interests, but the interests of the community. Together with many of our fellow fighters in Hungary, we pay tribute to his memory.
Romania has been through an electoral marathon, with a new head of state and a newly-inaugurated government. What are the prospects for the development of Hungarian–Romanian relations, and what expectations does the Hungarian government have of its cooperation with the new partners in Bucharest – with the new Head of State Nicușor Dan and Prime Minister Ilie Bolojan? How has the course of intergovernmental relations been affected by the fact that, as the longest serving Hungarian prime minister, you’ve seen some twenty Romanian heads of government just since 2010?
We’re now at twenty-two or twenty-three. I can safely say that I’m getting to know everyone, but I’m still just feeling my way around this government, and I don’t have a sense of exactly what’s going to happen. At the European Union summit in Brussels I had the opportunity to meet the President of the Republic, but it’s still very early days. I’d like to talk to him as soon and for as long as possible, because however bilateral relations develop, there are in the European Union which affect both of us, and very many of the interests of Romanians and Hungarians are in alignment. There are economic questions, military questions, questions of war and peace, and I’d like to see more clearly where the Romanian president stands on these issues. Hungary and I know exactly where we stand on the most important strategic issues, so there’s no mystery there. At the same time, we’re not starting from a bad position, because the Hungarian EU Presidency, which ended last December, was a historic breakthrough for Romania. Both we and the Romanians have acknowledged it as such, and so on this the Romanians have been fair. I promised them that when the opportunity arose, we’d somehow pull them, push them, drag them into the Schengen Area, because they deserved to be there a long time ago. So we weren’t doing them a favour – we were just being fair and helping them in a matter that was right for them. We did what we undertook to do. I don’t even want to go over the complicated manoeuvres in European politics that had to be carried out to get this done, but Romania is in the Schengen Area. The Romanians know this, so they can see that we have good intentions and are willing to cooperate. So we’re not off to a bad start, and then we’ll see. In any case, I don’t envy this government, because I can see that it’s inherited a difficult legacy – especially in economic terms. They’ll need to mobilise all their knowledge so that the Romanian people can come out of this economic situation with the least damage. I’m rooting for their success.
The Hungarians in Transylvania raised their eyebrows when, in your speech in Tihany in May, you made reference to George Simion, President of the Alliance for the Unification of Romanians [AUR], who was then a candidate for state president. At the time, this was also discussed with Hunor Kelemen, President of the RMDSZ [Democratic Alliance of Hungarians in Romania]. Were you surprised that Hungarians in Romania, including their representative organisations, weren’t willing to cooperate with the Romanian far right? How should we interpret that message?
It’s completely right that Hungarians in Romania shouldn’t cooperate with the far right – or, of course, with the far left. In other words, they shouldn’t cooperate with those who are the enemies of Hungarians. Here in Transylvania you know better than anyone anywhere else in the world who the enemies of the Hungarians are. So that’s fine, and you’ve done a very good job and defended yourselves against a far-right candidate. And then we shall see what this current president brings – but that’s another story. I haven’t said anything different from what I’ve always said and will continue to say. I was surprised that such a storm was stirred up – but an election situation involves a heightened state of nerves, and in such a situation perhaps the text or what one says is less important than when one says it. I have some excellent lines, and I can tell you now what I’ll be saying in five years’ time – the next time there are elections here. As Prime Minister of Hungary, I took a principled stand then, I take it now, and I’ll continue to do so in the future. I said that we wouldn’t interfere in the current presidential election campaign in Romania. But we were sending a message from that symbolic place, in Tihany, to assure the people of Romania and the future President of Romania – whoever he would be – that we stand upon the ground of unity and cooperation. This will be the case tomorrow, the day after tomorrow, and five years from now. It’s important that, whatever the Romanian President’s name, we won’t support any ostracism or political retaliation against Romania and its leaders. So in the European Union, where it’s customary to punish and retaliate against us, no one can expect me to support Hungary giving its backing for retaliation against any elected leader or government of Romania. We Hungarians will stand by the Romanians if they are retaliated against in Brussels for standing up for their sovereignty or for Christianity. This is our message now, and it will be our message in five years’ time.
Over the past decade and a half Hungary has provided considerable support to Hungarians living abroad, with the largest proportion of it coming to Transylvania. This isn’t to everyone’s liking, with some questioning, for example, why the Hungarian state provides increased educational support to students abroad studying in Hungarian, when it’s clear that this has a major impact on people choosing Hungarian schools. Can we expect any change in support policy? And, since this is also a necessary condition, how far can the mother country’s capacity to bear the burden be extended?
I can’t help those who don’t understand why we need to support our Transylvanian part of the nation, the communities and schools here. So two times two is four. The Hungarians here are in a tough situation, they’ve been struggling for a hundred years to survive, and I can’t help anyone who doesn’t understand what’s happening, if it doesn’t touch their heart or hit home for them. I can’t explain to those whose hearts aren’t Hungarian what it’s like to be Hungarian. And if you’re Hungarian, my friend, at home in “Little Hungary”, you mustn’t forget about those who are also Hungarian, who have only you to rely on, and who need your help. I can’t explain it to those who don’t understand this – for me that’s a hopeless task. I don’t want to offend anyone, but let’s talk to them about other things – there are other questions in life, and maybe we can agree on something else. But if you don’t understand what your duty is as a Hungarian – as a Hungarian at home – towards those beyond our borders, I can’t explain it to you. Anyone who says that one shouldn’t give money to Hungarians living beyond the borders for schools, kindergartens, crèches and churches either doesn’t know what they’re talking about or is in such a different world that it’s better to talk about something else. In terms of burden-bearing capacity, it’s very important – and I have to say this at home from time to time – that we’re not giving aid: we’re a national government. History is such that the borders are drawn here and there, but there is the Hungarian nation, and the parts of the Hungarian nation cannot be separated from one another by borders – because the country has borders, but the nation does not. For me, we are one nation: you’re a part of the nation, just as I am, as a Transdanubian; I’m part of the nation, and so are you. For me this is all one. This is why we’re not doing favours or giving aid, but we must think about the survival and strengthening of this nation, all parts of the nation, and help one another to do so. It’s seldom said, but you’re also helping us; because if I look at the trade between Romania and Hungary, from which Hungary benefits, part of our trade surplus is generated by Hungarians living here. So let’s forget the idea that we’re giving gifts: this isn’t aid, it’s a governmental duty arising from the responsibility of the parts of the nation towards one another. I’ve always seen it this way.
This depends to a large extent on the economic situation in Hungary: in this respect, what are the prospects in the motherland? I’m also asking this in the context of the tough austerity measures being implemented in Romania by the newly formed government, because of the high budget deficit.
I can tell you that at home the following decisions have been taken just recently. From 1 July there will be no tax on GYED [childcare allowance] and CSED [parental leave benefit], which are financial benefits for stay-at-home mothers, and which were previously taxed. This can amount to between 40,000 and 70,000 forints per month. We’ve just decided on and introduced a pathway to help young people buy their first home, and they can take out a loan at 3 per cent interest – while the market rate for loans is around 8–9 per cent. On 1 July we increased child tax credit for families by 50 per cent, and we’ll increase it again by 50 per cent in January. In October we’ll introduce lifetime full tax exemption for mothers of three, and from January lifetime full tax exemption for mothers of two. In October we’ll also introduce pension supplements. This is what’s happening in Hungary today: this is the reality; the rest is fairy tales and hocus-pocus. We’re strong and we’re going forward. But if we put this in a historical perspective, we still have to think about the economy in the sense that we lost the First World War and our opponents – our enemies in the war at the time – decided that Hungary should be small and poor. And they wanted to keep us like that for a hundred years. And we – my generation – decided that we’d be big and rich: that Hungary would be a big, rich country. This is what we’re working on, this is what we’ll do, this is the essence of the government programme.
We’re less than a year away from the parliamentary elections. What are the most important tasks for Fidesz? This is particularly interesting, given that the opposition is once again breathing down the necks of the governing party, and various opinion polls show the current opposition to be stronger than the opposition four years ago. Are any changes expected as regards the voting rights of Hungarian citizens living beyond the borders?
I don’t think it would be a good idea to amend the electoral law with so little time before the elections, and I don’t expect that. The reason an opposition exists is so that it can breathe down your neck – that’s its job. But the important thing is that it breathes down your neck: it breathes from behind, and not from the front. As long as that’s the case there’s no problem. The opposition is the same as it’s always been: although the clothes change and new faces come along, the basic structure of Hungarian politics doesn’t change. There’s always one big national party – now it’s us, but that was the case between the two world wars and earlier. There’s a big national party fighting for the independence of the country, for historical truth; and there’s always a cosmopolitan, suspect international formation, funded and maintained from abroad, led by prefects backed by foreigners, which tries to gain central governmental power with the help of money and influence from outside. This is how we lost the First World War, so this isn’t anything new in Hungarian politics. It’s important that we, the national forces, keep our supporters, and make them aware of the situation. But the most important thing is that we govern well, that people feel that we’re worthy of their trust, and that we keep foreigners and their hirelings away from government. This is the job of a national party. I’ll lead this work as the party’s president, and we’ll win the next election. This is the plan.
This means you’ll be going into the campaign with a lot of confidence.
With a healthy and historically grounded self-confidence. I’m in my twentieth year as prime minister, and we’ve won five elections – most recently four in a row. We’re enacting a series of measures that will give opportunities to Hungarians, to more and more people. Why should we be timid?
When another astronaut goes into space it’s a giant step for mankind – let alone for a country, for a nation. You recently spoke to Tibor Kapu, Hungary’s second astronaut, a man of whom all Hungarians are proud. So it’s a giant step for a nation. What does it mean for the nation that, after 45 years, a Hungarian astronaut has gone into space again?
Here I see two things. The first is that now we’re in a good position, because in recent times we’ve had two Nobel Prize winners and an astronaut. That’s something that rarely happens. And this raises the question of whether a country the size of Hungary and a country that has lost two world wars can set itself such ambitious goals. Or should it say that space travel and Nobel Prizes are reserved for the larger ones, and we’re too small for that? “Let’s dare to be small”, the leftists say. But we say, “No, let’s dare to be big”. And size isn’t always the only thing that counts, because Hungarians can be among the best in the world – whether it’s in the Olympics, politics, space or Nobel Prizes. I think it’s important for us Hungarians to be there, and I think it’s a matter of self-esteem. This is how we see ourselves, and from time to time we need to receive confirmation. The other thing that was touching, at least for me, was that they launched this Hungarian astronaut, Mr. Kapu, into space – and what’s the first thing one thinks of? That the Earth is below my feet, I’m looking at parts of it that I don’t know or can’t see from home. And what did Tibor Kapu say? “I was launched, and I looked for where Hungary is.” That’s a great thing!
I hate to end on a sad note, but the issue of the war affects us all. In your opinion, have we come any closer to peace in the three and a half years since the outbreak of the war in Ukraine?
No, we’re getting closer and closer to war. This isn’t our war: it’s a fratricidal war between two Slavic peoples, and we have nothing to do with it. The story that the Russians will come here and gobble everyone up is an amusing argument. If you look at the strength of the Russian army and its military spending, compare it with the military capability and economic strength of the Western European NATO members, and then put the whole of the United States behind us – well, let’s be serious! In the whole world there isn’t a greedy monster that could swallow all that. So this is not our war, and we must keep our distance from it. I’m sad to see that the Americans want peace but the Europeans want war. President Trump is constantly working for peace, and the Europeans want to beat the Russians on the Ukrainian front – they talk about it all the time. Because of this and a few other conflicts, the whole world is teetering on the brink of a third world war. Everyone sees us as being in an age of danger, and that there’s no way of knowing which way things will turn. This is the reason that there’s a sense of uncertainty throughout the world, which is also felt in the economy – not only here, but also on the other side of the world, with China perhaps being the only exception. In such times, for businesses the stronger consideration is not investment, not advancement, but security; the world thinks in terms of simply retaining what already exists – and if it thinks like that, the wheels of the whole world economy will turn more slowly. We’re seeing the economic consequences of this. But no problem: we Hungarians must focus on our own goals, we’ve set them, we must achieve them, and we must stand on the side of peace. We mustn’t let what’s happened twice happen again: a major European war later becomes a world war, the Hungarians get involved or pushed into it, against our own interests and our own intentions. We must stay out of it. This is my task, and in this I am unshakable.
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