Kata Vass: Today you’ve come here to Debrecen for a historic event, the inauguration of the BMW factory. What does this mean for the city and for Hungary, since we’re talking about an extremely significant development?
When it comes to city matters, I’ll rely on the Mayor. There are very few cities as fortunate as Debrecen – although of course Debrecen worked for its good fortune. I don’t mean to say that Debreceners waited for success to fall into their laps – that’s not the case. For a long time, even through difficult times, Debrecen kept the spirit of the country alive. So whatever developments take place here, the people of Debrecen deserve them. Still, there are few towns or regions in the country where things have come together as well as they have here in Debrecen. Because from the perspective of the nation, it’s now absolutely necessary that a healthier settlement structure comes into being instead of – or alongside – the swollen head that is Budapest. And for that we need a true, grand, serious, historic city – let’s call it a capital city. Secondly, there’s a major industrial and technological shift taking place in the world. We saw its imprint today when we inaugurated the BMW factory – and I also got to see other factory buildings under construction. They’re not bringing the 21st century here, but rather the 22nd. This will be home to the world’s most modern, advanced, innovative industries. So Hungary needed an industrial transformation, there was a need for such a shift, and we looked for a place where the conditions were present. Debrecen is fortunate because it has a strong university. So the country’s development needs have interlocked well with Debrecen’s strengths. I think the people of Debrecen will be the beneficiaries of this fantastic situation. I don’t think there’s another city in Hungary – or only very few – whose residents don’t believe that Debrecen is about to undergo a historic journey within just a few years. Now, regarding the country: after the First World War our great cities were cut off from us. Hungary used to look like this: there was Budapest, which at that time wasn’t yet oversized ; and then there was Pozsony/Bratislava, Kassa/Košice, Kolozsvár/Cluj-Napoca, Újvidék/Novi Sad, Szabadka/Subotica and Eszék/Osijek. We had major cities at an optimal distance from Budapest, playing the role of regional centres. We lost those. In their place came Győr, Miskolc, Debrecen, Szeged and Pécs. But these are smaller-scale cities. That’s why Hungary today has Budapest with a population of roughly two million, and after that the next biggest city is only about 180–200,000. And there’s nothing in between those two sizes. This isn’t good for Hungary: the oversized “head” isn’t good. So as we move forward we absolutely need to create a succession of one, two, three unified economic zones that incorporate residential regions of around 400,000 people. Obviously Debrecen itself won’t have 400–500,000 residents, but if I look at the towns around Debrecen, I see that this region is already more or less there – and Oradea/Nagyvárad is just a step away. So Debrecen will enter that space between 200,000 and two million, and it will become a truly large cultural, scientific, social, healthcare, and industrial centre. Starting today, the people of Debrecen are stepping into another dimension, ever faster and more noticeably than earlier. This will bring many good things. Looking at the numbers, of course people in Budapest earn the most. But if I look at how wages are growing, I think that in two years’ time wages in Debrecen will reach the Budapest average, and will surpass the income levels of all other provincial regions. So obviously a lot of good things and useful consequences will come from this. But development is always uncomfortable too – because factory sites must be built, roads and residential estates must be constructed, schools have to be provided, and so on. It’s worth acknowledging that there are always problems in our profession – in nation-building. If there were no problems, it would mean that life wasn’t working. The question is this: What kind of problem do you have – a good problem or a bad problem? If, for example, Debrecen weren’t developing but instead regressing or stagnating, that would be a bad problem. If Debrecen is developing, that brings with it all kinds of pressures to change – and that’s a good problem. These things can be solved if the people of Debrecen, their elected city representatives, the Mayor, and the national leaders are able to work together. If all that’s in place, then the whole thing will work.
The Prime Minister has just mentioned that in the end a flood of factories can be expected. How can the people living here benefit from this?
I’ll tell you what the Mayor asked for just a few minutes ago. He said that because of the city’s growth in size, the state must take a role in urban transport. Right now this burden falls solely on the city. We’re negotiating on that. In order for there to be a workforce of appropriate quality, and so that local Debrecen children can receive the kind of education that will allow them to work in these modern factories, three or four large vocational training institutions need to be developed – requiring tens of billions of forints. Airport development is also indispensable. This is what the Mayor said. They’re going to develop large residential areas, which place a heavy burden on utilities – and in this too the Mayor asked for a division or sharing of the costs. I’ve agreed to that. Then there are the museums, because when a city begins to grow as yours is growing, that growth must also be accompanied by culture. We’ve already decided that at least two major national museums – the Transport Museum and the Natural History Museum – will come to Debrecen. These have already not just been drawn as plans but models have been prepared – so we’re moving forward on that as well. And the most important issue to solve – and on this I’ve given the Mayor my personal guarantee – is water infrastructure. Factories are arriving, new residential districts are being created, and Debrecen will need water. I’ve always said that I’m at their disposal. We’ve now reviewed the plans, and I can say that within the next two or three years the water infrastructure needed for a comfortable, modern life will be available here in Debrecen too. So the city and the industrial zone can be developed with confidence.
As the Prime Minister has mentioned, many see Debrecen as the second capital. So does this mean that the city now has every prospect and opportunity to become an even greater driving force in the country?
Well, first of all Debrecen is a wonderful place. Of course, you can build a city from scratch, as is done in America, but the essence of a city is its history. And Debrecen’s history is fantastic. If you read, even just in secondary school, you can see how much has happened here – quite apart from the hajdús, or Csokonai. Everything is here. So I must say that this has always been a true cultural centre. Living in a cultural city is good – it gives people self-respect, and you’re continuing something that somehow makes life richer and more meaningful. But of course it’s also more responsible, because when you continue something, you bear responsibility for what you do – not just with regard to yourself, but also so as not to become unworthy of your predecessors. Debrecen has this. It’s also in a fantastic location. People like to joke – and I also sometimes joke with them – that when I say goodbye in the morning, at noon they can still see my back as I walk into the distance. But I think that at this moment being on the edge of the Great Plain is the best position to be. Because the development programme for the Hungarian Great Plain is just now gathering momentum. So you’re in the best place. In reality Oradea/Nagyvárad has always been a twin city to Debrecen. On the one hand this means rivalry, and on the other cooperation – but it certainly means the pooling of opportunities. I think that’s a big deal. The schools are fantastic. The elementary education system is excellent, and the university performs very well by European – and even world – standards. For Debrecen, the university is a goose that lays golden eggs: a huge gold reserve. If we develop the University of Debrecen well – and so far we’ve developed it well, with optimal size, improving quality, and appropriate openness to the world – then the University will be an enormous resource for Debrecen. If someone were to ask me where in Hungary they should move to, and if they don’t like the mountains but want to live in the lowlands, want to live in a historic and developing city, and have children who need good schools, then I’d wholeheartedly recommend Debrecen.
Prime Minister, how might the tax system that the Tisza Party wants to introduce undermine these plans and prospects?
Rather than undermining them, I’d say that it would punish them. The tax hikes announced or outlined by Tisza – raising personal income tax, raising corporate tax, introducing a wealth tax – would all be bad for those people and families who work and produce solid results. It would be a punishment: “You’re successful, you work hard, and we’ll punish you.” This is the worst kind of logic, it’s communist logic – that’s how it was under socialism, and even in the period leading up to 2010. I’ve worked hard so that this would no longer be the case. So I’m personally committed to the current low-tax system, because I’ve learned that low taxes are good for families, good for companies, and good for communities. And when taxes are low, people are willing to work more – because if they work more but the state takes away most of it in taxes, then they won’t work. So if we want performance, if we want people to put something on the table, to want to better themselves, then we need low taxes. And the wealth tax would mean that the whole country would have to make asset declarations. Because how else could one know how much wealth someone has? We already had this before 2010. We were the ones who abolished it. It meant that they went snooping, visiting houses, doing asset inspections: “How much did you spend this year, how was it?” Before 2010 Hungary was full of abuses connected with this. I think people should be left alone. There should be low taxes, they should be collected, and then we should say, “The rest of the money is yours. If you keep it as wealth, then keep it as wealth; if you invest it, then invest it; if you spend it, you spend it; if you use it for your children, that’s your business.” The state should have nothing to do with that. So low taxes, and let people live their lives.
At the governmental level, what are now the most significant developments facing Debrecen and the region? What are the items currently on the agenda?
What we most need to do here is increase the capacity of the water infrastructure system. I see there are always political debates about whether there will be enough water. There will be enough water! I’m not saying that we’ll carry it here in buckets if necessary, but there will be sufficient water, and there will be water infrastructure. And I also think it’s important to widen the Békéscsaba–Debrecen road to two lanes in each direction; because it’s good that Route 4 will reach here soon, and that Debrecen can already be accessed via the M3, but we also need a dual carriageway from the south so that Debrecen can truly fulfil its role as a regional centre. This is why we’ll connect Békéscsaba with Debrecen. These are currently on the table. And of course, the M4 is also coming. Right now we’re somewhere around Karcag and Kisújszállás, but we’ll build it all the way to the national border. One section already reaches the border, and the missing part will also be completed within the next two to three years.
Turning to the Home Start Programme, real estate experts say that Debrecen could be one of the biggest winners. What experiences have you seen so far? Is it possible to talk about results outside of Budapest yet?
We already have some experience, though it still needs to be systematised – three or four weeks is a short time. But what we see is enormous interest – huge numbers of people have been mobilised. Building permit applications are arriving by the tens of thousands, and loan applications as well. And, looking at real estate prices, I also see that the country’s strongest-performing city is Budapest, but Debrecen is right on its heels. So I believe that in the coming period property in Debrecen will be a very significant asset, an asset that will steadily increase in value.
Finally, I’d like to ask you about [Debrecen’s premier football club] DVSC, because for us here in Debrecen, DVSC is close to our hearts. Do you follow the club’s performances? Do you watch their matches?
Well, yes, I follow them, because fate played a bit of a trick on me here: my bad luck, or the devil of football, mocked me a little. For a long time Debrecen supporters were rightly on my back: they had a team which had won the championship six or seven times, continuously winning the league, and Hungarian football wouldn’t even exist without Debrecen – and yet they had no stadium. And then finally, the country was able to put together the resources to build a proper stadium in Nagyerdő. But by the time the stadium was completed, the team’s quality had declined. What’s needed now is for them to have both a good stadium and a good team at the same time. But they’re doing well now, I see…
Yes.
…in the league table. They even came to us at Puskás and beat us soundly, which didn’t feel good – but that’s life. So I wish them every success!
Thank you very much for the interview Prime Minister.
