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Zsolt Törőcsik: A 45-year-old Hungarian father of two lost his life in Transcarpathia after being humiliated and beaten by Ukrainian recruiting officers during forced conscription a few weeks ago. He was then taken to hospital where he died. This tragedy is one of the issues I’ll be asking Prime Minister Viktor Orbán about. Good morning.
Good morning.
The first question that comes to mind is this: Why? Why did this man have to die, leaving two children?
We’re talking about a Hungarian citizen, a dual Hungarian–Ukrainian citizen. So he belongs to our community: not only in the cultural, national sense of the word, as all Hungarians – regardless of where they live – belong to a national community, but also in the context of public law. So he’s also protected by the Hungarian constitution and by Hungary. It’s perhaps this that leads us to avoid the cautious wording that I’ve seen in the news. He didn’t simply die, he died as a result of forced conscription: he was beaten to death. So a Hungarian citizen was beaten to death. That’s the situation. And this is a case that we must investigate. So this cannot happen. The essence of citizenship is that if you’re a citizen of a state, you’re under the protection of your state. You have obligations that you must fulfil to your state, to your community, and the community has an obligation: to protect you. So it must take care of the family: that’s happening. We must look into what took place: that’s happening. And we also have to ask the Ukrainian authorities: that’s also happening. So we must take this seriously, because the person who was beaten to death was one of us. Obviously the root of the matter lies in the war. Many in Hungary may think that this front line is far away – and if the front line is far away, the war is far away. You could be more than a thousand kilometres away, somewhere around Donetsk – and just saying the word gives you a sense of the distance. But the truth is that there’s a war on the territory of a neighbouring country. And it almost doesn’t matter in which part of that neighbouring country, because it’s your neighbour’s war. This means that this man must have lived something between 15 and 30 kilometres from the Hungarian border, and he was beaten to death there. So this war, the threat, the fear, the danger that comes from it, is right on our doorstep. So it’s not an exaggeration to say that we live in an age of danger and that we must stay alert, because in this situation every move, every decision, every word could be significant. And of course this draws attention to the fact that Voks2025 – which was a referendum and a vote on Ukraine’s membership of the European Union – was a very justified collective action by us Hungarians, a collective gesture. This is because a country in which a person or people are beaten to death as a result of forced conscription – and of course forced conscription affects not only Hungarians but everyone else too – cannot be a member of the European Union. Because if we take in such a country, we’ll be taking in the war and all its consequences. Now, in addition to praying and doing everything we can for the family of the deceased, this is a warning – a warning shot for Hungary – that war is here in our neighbourhood.
We’ll talk about the wider context in a moment, but you’ve said that we need to investigate this matter. Yesterday the command of the Ukrainian ground forces said that he wasn’t killed as a result of ill-treatment. They say that he was a Ukrainian citizen who had been mobilised on a legitimate and legal basis. How far can we on the Hungarian side be satisfied with this explanation, and what options does Hungary have?
We can’t be satisfied at all, because we mustn’t bury our heads in the sand. We know exactly what’s happening in Ukraine – there’s forced conscription. It’s a very difficult war: a war of attrition, to use the jargon. Here the term “attrition” means two things. One is that there’s a slow grinding action happening continuously, slowly, day by day. So it’s a meat-grinder. There have been wars of this kind in the history of Europe, and there have also been parts of Hungary that have changed hands several times in the course of a war. I come from such a region myself, Fehérvár and its surroundings, where opposing sides dug in and the front line barely moved forward – just backwards and forwards, and a lot of people died. This is a meat-grinder. But there were also battles like that in the First World War, further west of us. Now this has been going on for three years. So this attrition strategy means the prolongation of the conflict, taking a long time and costing a lot of lives. This is why I say that there’s no solution to this type of war on the battlefield – and I say so not only from a moral point of view, not only as the Prime Minister responsible for the security of a neighbouring country, but also on the basis of historical experience. So it can’t be won on the battlefield, it can’t be concluded on the battlefield. What will decide the fate of this war won’t be military force, but diplomatic efforts. This is even though the Russians are winning, the Ukrainians have practically lost this war, and Europe has lost this war along with Ukraine – but no one has the courage to admit it and draw the conclusions. Instead they prefer to pretend that this war can be won. But this war cannot be won on the front line, it needs diplomacy: a ceasefire, peace negotiations.
Now, as you’ve mentioned Brussels, in recent days there’s been discussion of how European Ukraine’s practices are, considering that it’s striving to join the European Union. But conversely it’s also interesting to ask how visible these events, these tragedies are from Brussels’ perspective. Because here, if we’re talking about a Hungarian citizen, it also means that we’re talking about an EU citizen.
What’s more, at every European prime ministerial summit we have to hear – and now it’s starting to be said in public – that Ukraine has essentially fulfilled all the conditions for EU membership: it is claimed that corruption there has been eradicated, the rule of law prevails, human rights are respected, and the economy’s in good shape. And so the leaders of the European Union talk about Ukraine as a country that’s ready for EU membership, and that in fact the membership negotiations that we’re about to hold are a formality. They say that Ukraine has already done what it needs to, and now it’s our turn, the European Union’s turn, and that Ukraine must definitely be admitted before 2030. Yesterday, or the day before yesterday, there was a big conference in Rome, where this was also said in public. I just shake my head in disbelief. So those who say that Ukraine is ready for EU membership are light years from reality. You may be able to fool people in Brussels – although it takes a great deal of stupidity to take such positions and embrace them. But here where we live, on the Ukrainian border, to say that Ukraine is ready for EU membership is a colossal mistake or utter nonsense. So there is indeed forced conscription, people are dying, no civil liberties are guaranteed, the economy isn’t functioning, we’re supporting them with Western money, we can’t see the outlines of a future modern Ukrainian economy, and we can’t even see the intention to end the war. Imagine if Ukraine were a member of the European Union today. Today the European Union would be at war with Russia. If we take in Ukraine, we’ll be taking in the war – and nobody can want that. Despite this, it’s as if everyone in Brussels – I don’t know how to put it, so as not to offend them – has lost their common sense, constantly talking about winning the war, about how we’re going to defeat Russia on the territory of Ukraine. Meanwhile incidents like the one we’re talking about are happening countless times. Orphans, widows, suffering, tears. I won’t say it’s in the middle of Europe, because it’s more on the eastern edge, but it’s within our Christian European culture. This must not be supported, this war must not be financed: it must be stopped.
The debate on Ukraine that’s taking place in the European Union is also taking place at the political level – at least in Hungary. How should such a tragedy, such an incident, transform and influence these debates?
Well, I don’t consider the Hungarian debates to be unnatural – they’re serious debates, weighty debates with far-reaching consequences. But there are war parties in Hungary. So there are those from Hungary who support the EU Commission and the European leaders who want war or want to win this war. There are at least two such parties: DK [the Democratic Coalition] and Tisza, which we can safely call war parties. They’re war parties. Of course they say that peace can be achieved through victory, but the very definition of a war party is that it wants to go to war – whether it’s for peace or some other purpose, we shall see, but for the moment they definitely want to go to war. These are war parties. They’re the Hungarian members of the Brussels war coalition. And there are anti-war parties, which we can call peace parties. Fidesz belongs to this European camp, and the Patriots for Europe are mostly on the side of peace. We’re a peace party. So I don’t find it surprising that this is reflected in Hungarian domestic politics. We’re talking about a neighbouring country, and Hungary really has two options. The first is to side with the Brusseleers and say: “Let’s go, let’s go to war, let’s give money, weapons, and later – if necessary – men. Let’s defeat the Russians in Ukraine, this is our war too.” In Brussels they say, “This war is also ours, so let’s go to war.” The other position says that this isn’t our war, that this war shouldn’t be extended, but should be contained, localised, brought to a conclusion, and that peace should be agreed as soon as possible. This is our position. The fact that this is so obvious in Hungarian domestic politics is a natural consequence of the fact that we’re members of the European Union, and that in the Union there are two positions: pro-war and pro-peace.
In addition to accession, Brussels has concrete plans to continue its financial support for Ukraine. For example, 100 billion euros – or roughly 40 trillion forints – has been earmarked for this purpose from 2028. Meanwhile yesterday you said that European industry and the European economy are suffering. Where will so much money for Ukraine come from in these difficult economic circumstances?
On credit. So the plan is for the Member States of the European Union to go into debt together, take out a loan and give that money to Ukraine. To be honest with you, I’ve never heard such nonsense in my life – or I’d have to go back a long time in my memory to find something like it. The European economy is suffering, the European economy has lost its competitiveness, European households and businesses in Europe have to pay three to four times more for gas and two to three times more for electricity than our competitors. If we have money, and if we want to take out loans, which is a problem in itself, why should we take out loans together? But if we want to raise large amounts of money and think about what Europe needs above all else, then that must be the restoration of its economy – it must be spent on that, spent on Europe itself, and not given to someone else. This means what you’ve just referred to: the EU taking out a joint loan and sending money – including Hungarians’ money – to Ukraine. I shall oppose this to the end.
Now, speaking of competitiveness, yesterday you said that times are tough for the automotive industry, for the car industry. This was despite the fact that these words were spoken by you in Győr yesterday, at the launch of the new Audi model. Is the fact that car manufacturers are so prominent in Hungary and are investing in Hungary an opportunity? Or in this difficult situation is it more of a threat to Hungary?
When we talk about Audi, we’re talking about one of the jewels of Hungarian industry. It’s not just a depot for German industry in Hungary. It’s much more than that: the Audi factory is woven into the fabric of Hungarian life – it’s our factory. If you go to Győr and talk to people, you’ll quickly understand this. There are between eleven and twelve thousand people working in the factory – that’s how many families there are. And then there are about another 50,000 people whose jobs depend – indirectly – on how the Audi factory in Győr operates or doesn’t operate. So we’re talking about the livelihoods of tens of thousands of families. This isn’t a factory that can just be folded up and taken away: it’s here to stay. And Audi is part of the Volkswagen Group, a large concern – and the most successful member of it. So we can be proud of our workers and our engineers who are employed there, because they’ve been able to use the same technology that’s used in other Volkswagen factories around the world. So our factory is the most competitive, the most successful, the most profitable – it’s leading the way. And this is thanks to the workers, the engineers and the management – who are all Hungarians. So it’s a fantastic achievement. If we look at Audi not through German eyes, but as a factory in Hungary, and we see the Hungarian workers and engineers in it, then Audi is a fantastic Hungarian success story, and we can be proud of the people who work there. Those who say that the education system is decayed and rotten, let’s not forget that all these people – the engineers and the skilled workers – have emerged from the Hungarian education system. And let’s not forget that Audi in Győr has also integrated itself into Hungarian life and into our fabric in such a way that they’re also training their own workers. So Győr is one of the best examples of the dual training system that we’ve introduced. I’ve also met young workers who are coming out of these schools. And Audi in Győr has even become part of the Széchenyi University of Győr, where it’s also called the “Audi Department” – this isn’t its official name, but we know what it means. So it’s even integrating with the university world. But, just to understand the problems, here we’re talking about two different factories. So far this is the success, but now comes the problem. So there are two factories: there’s a car factory and there’s an engine factory. I was in the car factory yesterday, there was a new model being produced there, and it’s fine, thank you very much. It produces two models, but it can’t produce as many of the new models – these two models – as it has orders for. By contrast, there’s the engine factory, which is the world’s largest engine factory: the world’s largest engine factory is in Győr – not only the largest within the Volkswagen Group, but also throughout the world. Production there depends on the number of orders for engines, and there’s a downturn. So one division is doing well, and in the other division the managers need all their skills to organise the work so that everyone has meaningful work, so people don’t have to be laid off and the production lines are kept running. This is what we have in Győr. Now, if you go to Audi, as I did yesterday, then of course you’re talking about a German investment, and you’re thinking about Germany. Back when I was a child, we used to think of Germany as one of the best countries in the world, with technology, development, discipline, a culture of work, order, cleanliness – these were the words that came to mind when we heard the word “German”. But now when I’d looked at everything, at the meeting I had to say that Hungary would like to be like Germany was fifteen years ago – because we don’t want to be like what it is now. We’d perhaps want to be like it was before migration, when the automotive industry was still doing well and Germany was competitive. But we don’t want to be like what it is now, like the situation that Germany is in now. So I’ve been in a very mixed kind of meeting. In any case, we’ve strengthened the alliance between Audi and Hungary, and we’ll do everything we can to ensure that this factory continues to operate, remains in existence and continues to provide tens of thousands of people with chances for gaining incomes – both directly and indirectly. I see a future for Audi, despite the international automotive situation being extremely difficult for all European manufacturers, with European factories suffering in competition because of misguided policies in Brussels. It’s clear that the Brussels bureaucrats are not only bad drivers, but even worse navigators – because they’ve driven us into a wall.
Moving on from business to another slice of the economy, since the announcement of the Home Start Programme last week, many people have started to calculate how they can buy their first home. Let’s first look at the big picture – how does this programme fit in with existing housing and family policy support? Because at first sight it differs from them in many ways – at least in terms of conditions.
So far the line we’ve followed has been to give opportunities to young people with families, because they’re the ones who take on the most: they’re working, and they’re raising children. So we’ve tried to ensure that what money Hungary has is channelled as much as possible towards young people with families. But you also need to see that in order to have a family you have to direct some thought and knowledge to where you’ll be living with them. And this is why we finally came to the conclusion that we should start a programme, this 3 per cent fixed-rate home loan, for people who aren’t yet in a family but who want to get their first home. Because if they acquire their first home, and it’s not a rented property but their own, it will be easier for them to start a family and it will be easier for them to have children. So we can help Hungary’s demographic situation, but we don’t have to make having children a condition, because if you want to acquire your first home you can take advantage of this loan, no matter where you live, no matter how old you are, no matter what your marital status is. At the beginning of the year I promised Hungarian voters a breakthrough in a number of areas. One of these areas was support for small and medium-sized enterprises. For this we’ve launched the Demján Programme, the money’s being paid out now, and I think we’ll have a clear picture by the end of August. I think we’ve made a breakthrough there. The second area we identified was family support. Childcare allowance and parental leave benefit became tax-free on 1 July, we increased child tax credit by 50 per cent from 1 July, and we’ll increase it by another 50 per cent in January, so I think we’ll have a breakthrough there too. And the third commitment we made – addressing the issues related to home creation and access to housing – also represents a kind of breakthrough. I may have told you last time that a significant proportion of people under 40 – more than half – don’t own their own homes, while for those over 40 the figure is about 80 per cent. So it’s clear that young people simply can’t get a home in Hungary without state assistance. I think that the best form of assistance is the one that we’ve now devised. All the details of this have now been worked out or explained and answered, and I think that all the details will soon be known, and this programme can be launched in September.
Yes, let’s look at a specific life situation, which is relatively common: there’s a young couple paying over 200,000 forints, say, in rent, and they haven’t necessarily thought about owning their own home, because the down payment has been 25–30 per cent. What kind of opportunity is this for them now?
The down payment will be 10 per cent, and I think it’s manageable. I’m working now to make sure that we can still provide assistance, additional assistance, for public employees. So a 10 per cent down payment, and for a home loan like this, essentially a 3 per cent fixed-rate home loan, the repayment is less – or no more – than if you were paying rent. So instead of paying rent, here you’ll be paying the mortgage repayment on your own home. This can give you a start. It isn’t one’s ultimate goal in life, but it’s something to start from: you can think about marriage, living together, having children. So it’s a different perspective, it opens up a new area – and this is why I say that young people have the opportunity now, and they should take it.
At the beginning of the week a severe storm hit Hungary, practically devastating half of the country. The specialists involved have been working hard to repair the damage. In the meantime, Péter Magyar, President of the Tisza Party, wrote a post in which he criticised the closure of the airport, blaming the Government for it. In the end he took down the post and apologised for it. This question seems theoretical, but it has practical implications: In a crisis situation, what should the relationship be between politics and specialist professions? To what extent can political considerations override professional ones?
They mustn’t override them in any way – as I haven’t allowed them to be overridden. So anyone here can say whatever rubbish and post whatever they like, it won’t affect the defence measures. Government is a serious business: it doesn’t happen on Facebook, it happens in real life. And there you don’t have to come up with good sentences – you have to take responsibility for people’s lives. So we didn’t even bother with that, but looked at how many people we needed, because the experts told me that in thirty years there hasn’t been such a massive impact on the Hungarian electricity and public utilities system as there was now. There was a moment when almost 400,000 people were without electricity, and there were more than a thousand settlements where there was a supply disruption. So we had to mobilise a lot of people. We mobilised more than two thousand people, and had about 400 people working indoors as dispatchers. So in total we had between 2,500 and 3,000 people working to deal with the real problems – regardless of who was making what comments. I’d also like to thank them, because they were successful. So order has been restored in transport, and they’ve done their job well. I went to the emergency centre and I met committed, enthusiastic young people who were working day and night. I think the emergency services did a good job, and our firefighters were excellent. There are still obstacles to overcome, but most of the country is now fully accessible. So I have to say that law enforcement officers, the police, the disaster management services, the fire service, the transport experts, the railway workers, all did a great job – when there’s a problem they seem to be able to produce increased performance. The country can be proud that it’s survived such a huge storm, such a natural disaster, without mass casualties.
What we’re seeing, however, is ever more frequent natural disasters of this magnitude. Last year we had floods on the Danube, we had drought, and we’ve had these storms – which in recent years have often been accompanied by floods. And all this is happening in a very uncertain geopolitical environment. In a situation like this, when important decisions need to be taken quickly, when we have to see the big picture, what’s the most important task in government or for government policy? And what’s the most important quality that matters in such a situation?
Decisiveness and the capacity to take action. Now, if you look at the past week or ten days, at the beginning of the week we were fighting against the drought, there was no water, rain wasn’t coming; and then a few days later we were fighting against its arrival. So the essence of government work is capacity to take action, consistency and security. And I’ll say it again: we have to offer our thanks, because, let’s face it, now the Government – the few ministers – couldn’t have dealt with the problems. So when we say government, we don’t mean ministers: we mean state employees who are committed to serving the state, who dedicate their lives to serving the state, and who in times of trouble rush to the aid of other people. It’s a very fine job, which in everyday life seems rather boring, but when trouble comes it turns out that it’s not boring – it is very important, very high-stakes and very risky. And this is when the quality of people counts, and the quality of the law enforcement, disaster management, electricity and power supply professionals working for the Government is of the highest standard. I see this time and time again: we have world-class people who can do world-class damage control work, and who could do it anywhere in the world.I’ve been asking Prime Minister Viktor Orbán about topics including the case of the Hungarian man from Transcarpathia who was beaten to death during forced conscription, the economy, and the storms earlier
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