Menu
Zsolt Törőcsik: In the past week Hungarian diplomacy related to the Russo–Ukrainian war has once again moved up a gear. After his visit to Pope Francis, Viktor Orbán visited US president-elect Donald Trump, and also held talks with Russian president Putin and Turkish president Erdoğan. In the next half hour we’ll be discussing what options there are now for a ceasefire. I welcome Prime Minister Viktor Orbán to the studio. Good morning.
Good morning.
First of all, let’s clarify what’s happened in the last few days; because on Wednesday you uploaded a post about a Christmas ceasefire and prisoner exchange, noting that President Zelenskyy had rejected it. A few hours later, however, his communications adviser said that they’d received no such proposal; meanwhile the Russian presidential spokesman confirmed Moscow’s support for the idea. What’s actually been happening in the last 48 hours?
We really have had a packed week – let’s start from there. And something you didn’t mention – but for Hungarians perhaps one of the most important things – is that meanwhile the budget is being finalised: Hungary’s 2025 is coming into view, and families and businesses are beginning to see what the year ahead will look like. There’s been a lot to cram into this bag, into this week – and it’s not over yet, because it’s still only Friday morning. On Saturday there’s also a major event with good associations, because we’ll be able to hand over the section of motorway leading to Sopron. I’d just like to say that while we also have to swim in international waters, for us the Hungarian cove is the most important, and first and foremost that’s what we have to attend to. But because Hungary now holds the Presidency of the European Union, in the meantime the other half of our minds and our other hand is fully occupied with international affairs. Diplomacy is a complicated matter, in how things happen and why they come about. It’s also a craft, the details of which I’d rather not discuss right now; but the point is that now there’s an offer on the table related to the Hungarian initiative, which is about ensuring that no one dies on the front line at least during Christmas. This isn’t a complicated proposal, and it’s understandable – because Christmas is after all about love, life, birth and happiness. Of course reality is overriding this, because a war is in progress; but in such cases, if the parties can agree with each other, and there was an example of this in the First World War, then there can be a ceasefire at Christmas. And if the parties can even agree to exchange a large number of prisoners, to a large exchange of prisoners, then in such a difficult time many hundreds or thousands of people and families can be made happy. The Olympics could have been an opportunity to interrupt the war for at least a few days, in the tradition of European civilisation, but it was not to be. Now it’s Christmas, and this was worth trying. This is what Hungary did. We’ve done what we could. The opportunity for a mass prisoner exchange and a Christmas ceasefire is on the table. It’s there, and it doesn’t matter how it got there. With this there are two things one can do: one can accept it, or one can reject it. One side has accepted it, and the other side has evidently rejected it. But there are still a good few days before Christmas, and we believe that the situation can change.
What do we know about the reasons for one side rejecting this proposal, and what more can be done to change this position, even through Hungarian diplomacy?
Hungarian diplomacy has done everything it can, and I think it’s outperformed itself. If we weren’t holding the Presidency of the European Union, we wouldn’t have had to do this. Of course this is, after all, a Christian government, and if there’s something it can do that will bring us closer to our salvation, nationally and personally, then it’s worth doing – and indeed we’re duty-bound to do so. And I believe that now there’s nothing more important than achieving a ceasefire for a few days, which would mean that thousands of people won’t die: there will be fewer widows and fewer orphans. So these are dimensions in politics that are worth paying attention to. Because of course there’s all this sleight of hand, all this wheeling and dealing, all this negotiating and so on; but one mustn’t lose sight of the important ultimate goal – because there are higher human goals, even in a time of war like the one we’re living in. So I think Hungary has acted as befits a Christian European state with a thousand years of history. We’ve done everything we could in this situation, even punching above our weight: we’ve taken advantage of the fact that we hold the rotating presidency of the European Union, and as the majority of European states are now pro-war and we’re pro-peace, a few months ago we thought that we should do our duty. We’ve come this far, and I think that this is no mean feat. We’ll see what kind of Christmas we have.
In recent weeks you’ve been in talks with many of the central players related to the conflict. Who do you now think holds the key to peace – or at least to a ceasefire?
Regardless of the war, I’m saying now what I’ve said before. So I don’t want to – and can’t – surprise you with my words: the world is on the threshold of change that is much greater than we think. I remember the European Parliament election campaign, when we outlined to the electorate, to the Hungarian electorate, a commitment, a hope, a prospect, a horizon. We told them that if they helped us, Hungary could be part of it, and the Hungarian government could play a role in a change, a change within Western civilisation. This change would be of historic proportions: moving our lives from war to peace; from a world of economic misery, suffering and high inflation to economic success; from a sense of insecurity to security; from a world of gender madness to a world of protecting families; from a policy of supporting migration to a policy of protecting borders instead of a demented policy. So we’ve been trying to prepare the Hungarian people for these changes, which are about to take place. We received support for this in the European elections, which we won overwhelmingly, and we also set up the Patriots for Europe group, which is working for these changes. And, as we’d hoped, this turnaround has also taken place in America. I’ve now spoken to the Americans, I’ve spoken to the Russians, I’ve spoken to the Europeans and I’ve spoken to the Turks; and I can say with certainty that once the American president takes office, the world will undergo a great turnaround. We’re at a dangerous moment; this is because America has a new President, but he won’t take office until 20 January, Germany’s government has failed, France’s government has disintegrated, and Syria – which has been the biggest source of migrants in the past decade – is in a chaotic situation, and there the government has also fallen apart. So we’re in a difficult period, in a turbulent stretch of river or sea, which we need to thrash our way through; but then we’ll be in calmer waters, because as soon as the US president takes office, then this turnaround that I’m talking about – that’s going to happen across the Western world – will unfold before our eyes. And we won’t have to wait for that, just a day or two after the 20th, because I see that the new administration in America will get off to a flying start. On the issues that are most important to us, changes are taking place there which will reach the European continent and will force changes that are dear to our hearts.
I’d like to ask one more question about the Hungarian Presidency of the EU, because yesterday it became certain that Romania and Bulgaria will join the Schengen Area on 1 January. What does this mean for the Hungarian Presidency of the EU, and for the Hungarian nation in general?
First of all, let’s not pass over such a fantastic success without saying a word, and let us thank those who deserve our thanks. Let us thank the Minister of the Interior, Sándor Pintér, because this series of negotiations – which will result in the Romanians and Bulgarians joining the Schengen Area, which we’re a part of – had to be negotiated in the Home Affairs Council, which Sándor Pintér has been leading for the last six months. And we should also thank János Bóka, the Minister for European Affairs, who managed the background elements of this series of negotiations at one level higher, where we had to conclude the agreements that were a precondition for this decision. This was because a lot of background deals had to be concluded, before the blocking countries eventually dropped their resistance. Here we’re talking about a matter that’s been shrinking into the background for more than a decade. The accession of these two countries to the Schengen Area was blocked. Certain major European countries blocked it. This obstacle had to be removed, and in diplomatic terms this was no small feat. So these two ministers really deserve the highest praise. For us this means that first of all we’ve achieved something that Hungarians beyond our borders – Hungarians in Transylvania – have wanted for a long time. For me a decisive factor was what they thought about Romania’s Schengen membership – and they wanted it very much. They’ve wanted it for a very long time, because it means that people living in Hungarian areas – in other words Transylvanians and people living in Hungarian areas – will be able to travel without obstacles. There are Hungarians over there, and there are Hungarians here, and it’s obvious that it’s in our interest that there are no barriers between families, relatives, communities and workplaces. So I think that this is an important step for Hungarian national unity. The RMDSZ [Democratic Alliance of Hungarians in Romania] also did a lot of background work to make this happen. The Romanians also wanted it, so we can say that in the stormy history of Romanian–Hungarian relations this is a sunny afternoon: the Hungarians have been able to do something good, the Romanians are also beneficiaries of this, the Romanians know this, and they’ve been constructive and have helped us in our work. And let’s not forget the Bulgarians, with whom we’ve never had any problems. They’re a friendly people, on the basis of our historical memories we can only say the best about them, and we’re glad that we’ve been able to help them. In addition, after a transitional period we’ll be able to redeploy our police officers away from border guard duties on the Romanian–Hungarian border. So we’ll save a lot of manpower and energy. In any case, the police have problems with staffing levels, and it’s a great help that a certain task is being abolished, and on the one hand we can redeploy them to more dangerous border areas, while on the other hand we can use them for duties related to internal public security and public order. So I feel that after the transition period the police will also be in a significantly easier position than they’re in now.
You’ve mentioned that the world is facing great changes, but also that these changes often happen faster than earlier – in Syria, for example, the fall of Bashar al-Assad took just a few days. In connection with this, there were some fake rumours in the Hungarian media and the political sphere that the deposed president’s plane had landed in Budapest. This was subsequently denied by all involved. But what’s your view of the national security implications of this fake news and these rumours?
For me this is the most important event of the week. Many things have happened this week, but this is the most important, and the one that needs the most attention. In the end, what happened? What happened is that the Government of Syria collapsed. Back around 2015, when we saw the first act in this Syrian civil war, from there a huge wave of migration and terror swept across Europe. In Europe hundreds of people died. Let’s not forget that mixed in with the refugees from Syria were terrorists, who were then organised and controlled, and who carried out terrorist attacks in Western Europe that claimed hundreds of victims. So what’s happening in Syria and its impact on Europe isn’t a lark that can be joked about and used for fake news stories. Much blood has been shed as a result. There have been victims here, with hundreds dying in Western Europe. We Hungarians escaped with a minor scratch, with some border incidents – like Röszke, if you remember. We got away with less trouble than the Westerners because we didn’t let the migrants in and we built the fence. What’s happened now is that people have used a fake news story to try to get Hungary involved in a bloody conflict – meaning that they wanted to turn Hungary into a target. Because now President Assad is being hunted. He’s fled his country. So they’re hunting him. Armed groups, paramilitaries and terrorist groups are hunting him. Anyone who claims that President Assad has entered Hungarian territory made – or tried to make – Hungary a hunting ground. We need to know who they are and why they did what they did. It’s the task of the national security services to investigate this. This isn’t a game; this is about the security of the Hungarian people.
Yes, an interesting question is what the services have to do, either with this case or others, and who has to do what to ensure that this doesn’t happen again.
We live in a world of freedom, Hungary is a free country, unfortunately people can do very stupid things – and sometimes they can even act outside the law, and do irresponsible things. These can’t be regulated by legislation alone; although that’s needed, there’s a far greater need for common sense, discernment and responsible behaviour towards other people. There are norms of civilisation that politics mustn’t transgress; because of course in politics there are disputes, but we’re still one community, one nation, one people. This must not be put at risk. So in such cases, very simple questions must be asked: Did this happen by accident? Well, I’ve seen a lot of things in this world, and I don’t believe that something like this happens by chance. Who’s behind this? Who dreamt it up? For what purpose? Who did they involve from Hungary? Through whom was this rumour spread? What were they trying to achieve? There are a few questions, these are difficult questions, and they’re difficult to investigate in a publicly open way; this is where the secret services come in.
We’ll see what results they come up with. Returning a little to the Russo–Ukrainian war, peace is also of great significance, in the sense that the Government has presented a peace budget for next year, which is based on the expectation of the resumption of economic growth. But behind the numbers there are always families, there are always people. Among analysts the consensus is that Hungarian society was able to strengthen economically up until 2019, and then came the crises: COVID, the war and inflation. And now many people can’t afford what they were able to afford before, say, 2020. What are the chances that next year families will be able to strengthen again?
Surprising as it may seem, the key issue for the budget is the war; this is true, despite the fact that the budget isn’t a military document. This is because everything that’s wrong with the European economy originates from the war – it’s because of the war. If we want to heal the European economy, including the Hungarian economy, this can only begin by ending the war. We’ve now adopted – or are adopting – the budget in December, and not in July as we usually do; this is precisely because it was between July and December that we were hoping for a transition, or a turnaround, from war to peace throughout Europe, throughout the Western world – including in the US elections. This has happened. So we have the answer to the first question of whether our budget for 2025 should be a war budget or a peace budget. And while the story is not yet over, because the US President will only take office on 20 January, it’s very likely that we can say that for 2025 we should adopt a peace budget, that the turnaround will happen, and that the Hungarian budget for 2025 should be based on this turnaround. This is what the Hungarian budget is based on. Up until now we’ve had years of war, and now we have a peace budget, and years of peace are coming. In an era of peace, a country can have only one goal, and that is to make itself strong again, to make the Hungarian economy strong. For Hungarian families this means that in 2025 we’ll be able to start moving upwards. That was the understated version, but on this I’m in the more enthusiastic camp. I think we’re in for a fantastic year in 2025. We have this surging cloud of war, which weighs heavily on people; because even if the economy’s doing well, you have this dark, cloud of war over your head, and the storm could come at any moment. You cannot even see the economic progress, if there is any, and you see inflation sapping your energy, you see a lot of things that are the result of the war. But when at last this thunderstorm recedes, the thundercloud disappears from over your head, life changes and the sun comes out. And then your efforts make more sense. You’re no longer prey to uncertainty, you feel that it makes sense to work, to work harder, that it’s worthwhile to try again, that you can take risks, and that somehow the effort will pay off. So suddenly everything changes. And this is the psychological fact that the budget is building on. We’re expecting high growth: in the first post-war year of peace we’re targeting economic growth of above 3 per cent; and we’re introducing many measures that will move the country upwards. So families can move upwards. Once again, I think they’ll do so at a faster pace than expected, in a fantastic year. Our hopes are justified or supported by the fact that we’ve been able to oversee an agreement between the unions and employers: a three-year agreement, which will allow for a 40 per cent pay increase overall. I think this is the biggest wage increase seen in Europe in decades. And we know that minimum wage agreements are always good for other wages. We also know that the Government has been able to decide on some specific pay increases for which the Government isn’t the regulator, but the employer. After COVID we were able to make a significant wage adjustment in the health sector, and now we have something for teachers that we’ve never had before: there was a huge increase this year, and it will continue next year. And the water management workers who saved us here during the Danube floods will finally get their recognition; there too, a three-year pay increase programme is being launched. And if I’m not mistaken an agreement has also been reached with members of the judiciary, in which there have also been unfair conditions for judges and prosecutors – but most of all for the staff assisting them. There are one or two areas where conditions are still unacceptable, and we’ll take stock of these in 2025, ‘26 and ‘27; but now we can see the light at the end of the tunnel, we’re coming out of this war, and everyone can finally feel that their work has a meaning – that it’s not only meaningful, but also useful.
Last week, one credit rating agency upgraded the outlook for Hungary’s sovereign debt rating from negative to stable. To what extent does this confirm the Government’s expectations?
This is difficult, because these rating agencies like to keep people on their toes. So they’re financial people, always looking at debt and budget deficits. They’re not the most agreeable people to negotiate with and talk to, but they have their own truth. So these institutions are necessary, but they’re strict bodies making judgements, always bringing this truth to the table: “Of course you can draw up beautiful economic plans, but do you have the financial backing for them?” Because if the price of this is that you go into debt and create a large budget deficit, and you want to use debt to finance welfare, you’ll end up collapsing. And so your plan will collapse. That’s what happened under socialism. You know, sooner or later all the money you spend, every forint you spend, has to be earned and paid for by someone. So there are limits even to well-intentioned economic policy, and this is what the credit rating agencies remind us of. So it’s not easy to reason with them, but it’s marvellous that these hard-hearted people, let’s say, have also seen sense in the Hungarian economy’s plans for 2025 – only a part of which I’ve referred to here. Because let’s not forget that in addition to student loans there will also be a worker’s loan, and then there will be housing support, and employers will be able to give housing support of up to 150,000 forints to their young employees. So while the budget contains a number of socially important measures to help people and families, these credit rating agencies have said that it has a solid financial basis. So this is why this feedback about how the credit rating agencies see us – the feedback that you’re talking about – is important. Incidentally, the picture is mixed: some are more positive, some are more reserved. But one thing is certain: you can feel the carpet starting to billow up, you can see that it will rise, it will start to move, and then it will fly. And even our harshest critics cannot rule out the possibility that this could actually happen. I can add to this the fact that within the Sándor Demján Programme 1.4 trillion forints will be given to small and medium-sized enterprises, there will be capital support, preferential loans, export support and support for digitalisation. And I can further add that we’ll complete five hundred investments and launch three hundred new investments, and that the Hungarian economy will see a fantastic moment next year when two huge new car factories that are being built now will start operating, that will be in production in 2025: for BMW and the Chinese firm BYD. And several large battery factories will start operations. So huge economic capacities will be initiated. After all this, you can see that our hopes really have a solid financial and economic basis.
Let’s talk about another sad case which, it’s safe to say, has aroused emotions in recent days. The murderer of Tamás Till confessed to his crime twenty-four years after the boy’s murder, but he was able to walk out of the police station a free man because the statute of limitations had expired. Then yesterday, the Public Prosecutor finally ordered his arrest, saying that the statute of limitations had not in fact expired. Since then, however, there’s been a debate, a legal debate, about what the position is on this. What’s your opinion of the Prosecutor’s decision?
I’m following the case as well as I can. I have three thoughts about it, or three lessons that can be learnt from it. The first is that missing children must be looked for: we must never give up doing so. If a child goes missing, it’s like having your heart ripped out or half your life taken away. So you must never give up. There are missing children in Hungary, so this is a serious task. So we have to bear in mind that here there can be no compromise: we must keep going until somehow the truth is brought to light. The next thing is that we have fantastic police officers. We’re talking about a crime that was committed more than ten years ago, and clearly they didn’t give up: they continued pursuing it, they didn’t close the file. So I’m reassured that Hungary has police officers who take seriously the fact that their job is to pursue crime. And the third thing is that, leaving aside any legal debate, I can only say that there must be justice.
Briefly, is there anything else the legislature should do in this regard?
Whatever happens, if there’s something that can be done, it must be done. There must be justice.
In the last half hour I’ve been asking Prime Minister Viktor Orbán questions on topics including diplomatic efforts to end the war, fake news stories, and the economic situation.
